Jeremy Vine- non binary baby

[TulipsTulipsTulips]

Is anyone else listening?

Me, not very balanced so far.

Thank God that woman came on to dispute "gender assigned at birth". It does my nut in!!! She was very clear and sensible.

So frustrating that they think the cure for gender bias is just to change your gender!

I was wondering if she was an MNer.

How can you be trans and non-binary?!

movecloser I’ve been asking that very same question for a couple of years and still not got an answer.

If it's a baby surely all it cares about is that it's warm, well fed, and gets the occasional reassuring cuddle. Babies literally don't have the mental capacity to be thinking about their "gender".

@movecloser @witchbitch - the answer is: I AM WHATEVER I SAY I AM*

*credit to Eminem

Was it Jazz Jennings whose mum decided that baby must have genderfeels because baby kept unsnapping baby's onesie? I'd have just thought "maybe baby is too hot or the onesie is too small".

To be fair, this was on our local BBC News last night and the mother corrected the use of the word Gender several times, saying they were talking about the baby's sex and that gender was something completely different. JV must have said gender about 50 times.

They don't want people who interact with the baby to do that "pretty girl/ big strong boy" stuff that has been well documented in the past, and say that if nobody knows whether Anush is a boy or a girl they won't have that automatic bias to treat them differently.

Seems like a bit of a psychological experiment to me.

The caller from Stornaway sounded like a mumsnetter. She was the only sane voice on that piece. Why we are giving a platform to these genderfree idiots is beyond me.
A relative of mine has just had her 20 week scan & guess what she is having a boy, an actual boy, not a non binary, genderfree, human who we all have to call “they”.
Thank fuck that none of them are my DIL.

Are these the circus people? DH was chortling about this over breakfast (so I guess it was in the Times then?).

As he said 'so they dress the child as a girl one day and as a boy the next... to break down gender stereotypes? Uhuh, big fall at the first hurdle then...'

I think that poor kid will be the first one in history to run away from the circus to join an accountancy firm...

Just thinking out loud. What if we lose the he / she him,/her 'label' for all of us ?

I'd call everyone 'thing' and 'it'. The French would have a bugger of a time.

They don't want people who interact with the baby to do that "pretty girl/ big strong boy" stuff that has been well documented in the past, and say that if nobody knows whether Anush is a boy or a girl they won't have that automatic bias to treat them differently.

Several things will happen though, because we really can't control what others do (much as we might like to)

-many people will make assumptions about the child's sex and the older the child is, the more likely it is that the assumptions are correct

-people will also make assumptions about the parents and this kind of controlling behaviour is not conducive to good social interactions

• there are also numerous trust issues in play, but if they keep this up after the age of eight, the age when children get single-sex facilities, the rights and needs of other children may be negatively impacted by this child

-from what I've seen, not a few kids in this kind of situation eventually rebel against their parents and end up resenting them for marginalising them like that

If you want to resist the insidious consequences of gender stereotyping, you teach your children from a very young age that apart from very few biological functions, your sex does not dictate what you do, wear, play with or like. And the older you get, the more you teach them about that. In the meantime, you parent accordingly.

One does not defeat an enemy by pretending it doesn't exist, but by facing up to it, learning all about it and then taking it on.

To be fair, there is a lot of psychological research to show how some people treat boy and girl babies differently when there is absolutely no need to do so. So I don't think hiding a baby's sex for a while is an issue, except for being vastly tedious to other people, up until the point that the child is developmentally starting to understand the concept of boys and girls, which isn't very old at all. At this point I think the psychological harm to the child of all the secrecy which it won't be able to make head nor tail of will quickly and easily outweigh the benefits of not being gender stereotyped by random others.

The secrecy is all doomed to failure pretty early on anyway too.

As he said 'so they dress the child as a girl one day and as a boy the next... to break down gender stereotypes? Uhuh, big fall at the first hurdle then...'

My friend's sister and her partner ask their child every day whether it wants to identify as a boy or girl. I am really wondering how this poor child is going to develop a sense of who she is and where she fits in.

Watching this, and other things, I have actually become less inclined to be against clothing with gender associations. Not that I think it should be over the top, and I think it needs to be practical and comfortable, but I am increasinly inclined to think that some external expressions like pronouns or clothing differences, or other things that are really benign in most cases, are part of the way children come to understand the world. I mean, social roles probably works as well in places where it is relevant, but I'd rather have little kids wearing different coloured shirts than make an issue out of male and female social roles.

Our favourite extreme porn advocate is on now.

I wish OPs would say a bit more than "is anyone watching"! Not all of us are UK based, not all of us are capable of tuning it at a given time.
I was able to follow what it was about due to the following posts, but in future, a little more explicit maybe!
Today I've been "exploring" the concept of "theybies".
www.thesun.co.uk/fabulous/6052816/parents-refuse-tell-people-theyby-boy-or-girl/

I grew up in a big family. It was first up best dressed. Equal number of boys & girls.

My parents must have been conducting an experiment in gender without realizing.

I'd call everyone 'thing' and 'it'. The French would have a bugger of a time.

This would work in German, as there truly is a neutral gender, sometimes applied to humans, as in das Maedchen, the girl.
Nothing to be offended about. The suffix "-chen" is always neutral.

Yes I caught Jane Fae advocating for climate change deniers to be prosecuted

I wonder what other beliefs Jane would like to prosecute people for holding?

For a person who is all about freedom of expression when it comes to pornography, Jane is remarkably restrictive about the freedom of others on different subjects

...that are really benign in most cases, are part of the way children come to understand the world. I mean, social roles probably works as well in places where it is relevant, but I'd rather have little kids wearing different coloured shirts than make an issue out of male and female social roles.

I don't really think gendered clothing is that big a deal, as long as we don't make it so. Some clothes are really better suited to the female form, for instance, the sari. I think most men do look a bit ridiculous in dresses, but that might only be my conditioning. I tend to like men in suits, women in gowns, on formal occasions. I don't think it's that big a deal.

Yes Jane Fae quotes science as evidence for prosecuting climate change deniers. Is this the same science that Jane Fae denies when it comes to their own biology?
I’m going to have to switch off now, my blood pressure can’t take anymore today.