Jeremy Vine- non binary baby

[TulipsTulipsTulips]

Is anyone else listening?

I wonder what other beliefs Jane would like to prosecute people for holding?

Indeed. And it's interesting that Jane Fae thinks that people should not be allowed to question climate change, but should be absolutely free to write and distribute explicit pornography detailing the decapitation and dismemberment of an actual real woman.

@theJeremyVine @JeremyVineOn5 @Vine_Watch [email protected]

Only caught the last bit but on his @BBCR2 show talking to Sinead, a "non-binary" AFAB (sic).
"Fascinating. As the father of two young daughters ...", you should know that Sinead rejecting gender roles, stereotypes and restrictions is GENDER CRITICAL not "non-binary". Nobody is neither sex, nobody can change sex, "they" is still female and wanting to abolish "gender" (she cites Miss/Mrs/Ms) makes her GENDER CRITICAL, which is a radical-feminist viewpoint, not NB. Trans people relish and uphold those stereotypes (see the Mermaids stick person "spectrum") and switch from one extreme to the other.

CAN PEOPLE PLEASE TWEET OR EMAIL HIM WITH SCREENSHOTS, LINKS & PHOTOS ETC BECAUSE, "as the father of two young daughters", he needs to know that intact males like the naked-erection-tiddies-selfie one in the women's rape shelter in Canada "identifying" as females will be undressing and showering and tackling his little girls.

I don't really think gendered clothing is that big a deal, as long as we don't make it so. Some clothes are really better suited to the female form, for instance, the sari. I think most men do look a bit ridiculous in dresses, but that might only be my conditioning. I tend to like men in suits, women in gowns, on formal occasions. I don't think it's that big a deal.

Yes, this is it. I don't think the idea of doing away with some type of gendered clothing would work well. It's sort of Maoist-type experimentation, and people don't seem to respond very well to it. People know they are two sexes and not only that, they are really interested in the fact that they are two sexes. I don't think that is something we can extinguish, it will come out one way or another, an expression of that sexed reality.

You can't even be counter-cultural or a gender bender if you don't have some kind of cultural sense of what is masculine or feminine.

It's fucking bananas. And quite insulting. Say I am a particular race, and that race has certain assumptions made about it. For example, I'm Brown and everyone assumes I'm Muslim. Sometimes that's a neutral assumption ( like when I'm having a glass of wine with work colleagues and I'm asked if I'm allowed to!) And sometimes it's negative (do I have a bomb strapped to me?) Does that mean I should somehow conceal my race in case of what others might think??
I hate all this pretend there are not two sexes shite. I'm proud of my sex and proud of my woman's body and I would expect any child to feel proud of their body (and certainly not ashamed). It's so damaging to this baby, the idea that she or he has something to hide. It is for other people to learn and adjust not be be biased and that can happen when they see a woman or a man do the the unexpected, not when we hide who we are.

How you do this without encountering the Barbara Streisand Effect?

How do you try and keep something like this secret in practice?

What are going to do if your baby takes a shit in its nappy when you are out and there's no baby change nearby? Are you going to let your child sit in its own shit rather than change it in front of your mate?

Or what are you going to do at nursery, when you have to fill in a form. Or you have other children asking questions? Which toilet does the child use? And what happens when another child spots the obvious when your kid leaves the door open? How are you going to handle safeguarding issues with male / female carers?

Or how are you going to deal with it, when a kid comes along and says: "My mummy and daddy say you have to be a girl or boy" and then is a nasty bully and decides to find out what 'they' are?

And how do you deal with the chinese whispers when one parent finds out and tells someone cos you've made such a song and dance about it all?

Or dealing with the annoying old woman in the supermarket you decides to interogate you about your baby (we've all met one at one point, even though its well intentioned) or the old man who thinks its all bullshit and decides to lecture you in the pub?

Honestly, its like these people don't live in the real world and haven't really thought it all through.

Its not that hard to make the point that you don't want gender stereotyped clothes and toys, and being able to explain this to friends and family in a way which isn't going to make others think you are being utterly ridicilous. You might actually get more people on board too, cos its hardly an idea that other parents can get on board with after the fact...

I can't believe that anyone takes this seriously and indulges this lunacy. All you do is get everyone around you desparate to find out the secret to get one over on you or to be 'in on the secret'.

How is the treatment of that better than them being subject to the stereotypes of gender? Its just replaced by another type of stereotyping anyway.

And I do ask what the ultimate purpose of this is? What happens if your child does identity as the 'wrong gender', does this mean you are going to fast track them to transition before puberty when the secret will come out once and for all? At some point if they do hit puberty they are going to have to deal with those stereotypes and live as the sex they are born otherwise. What exactly is the ultimate purpose of this? And there lies another whole can of worms.

I do not get what the point is.

Other than the parents using the child to virtue signal their political views to others without the child's consent.

Poor baby, s/he won't get to lie nappy free waggling his/her legs at change time lest some nosy relative notices her/his sex.

These people are a bit mad and a lot cruel in my view. What they are doing isn't progressive, it's damaging. It isn't as if you need to hide your child's sex to dress them how you please or use opposite sex hand me downs. It's not about the baby at all, it's about the parents. It's me, me, me, MMMEEE!

As for this nonsense

Yes I caught Jane Fae advocating for climate change deniers to be prosecuted

This stuff is actually my field by education and a lot of climate activists spout unmitigated shite themselves and frankly aren't much better than the deniers. JF has no clue what JF is on about on this matter and should probably stick to wanking on about the vilest forms of pornography.

You have to wonder about the thought process of anyone who'd book Jane Fae to represent a given perspective on a news show. Are they trying to undermine that perspective? Because Fae is about as reassuring as a grinning crocodile.

Aw cmon Fae is a leading feminist doncha know

🤣🤣🤣

This also came up on Loose Women. Very disappointed in Janet S-P who said we should all gleefully embrace the new vocabulary because she broke a doll as a child. Gloria H was getting splinters with it was OK for adults to choose NB but why impose that on a child? Christine L gave a rousing rounding-up of isn't Sam Smith super, brave, marvellous.

For anyone asking what the point of this whole thing is, take a look at where babies' genders were swapped to see how carers treated them differently.

Anyone who thinks that boy should be able to play with dolls and girls should be encouraged to climb etc should really understand that this couple with their gender neutral baby are trying to do just that, and even those with the best intentions can't help speaking to girls and boys differently.

It isn't a pathway to transing the child, its the opposite, its a way to show that any child can play with any toy and be expected to accomplish anything, regardless of their sex/gender (which in babies/small children tends to be the same - gender is obviously bullshit, but I am entertaining the notion of it for the purpose of this debate).

We all know people who compliment little girls on their hair/clothes etc and ask little boys what they've been up to instead. Or people who automatically brush off loud and boisterous behaviour as 'boys will be boys' but expect girls to sit nicely and role play being mummy.

Trying to steer, not only the child, but those around them, into treating the child without stereotypes is admiral in my book.

Of course it won't last past the 'big reveal' when they give in to their friends' curiosity and pull their trousers down, but I say Good luck to them.

admirable*

The BBC programme 'No more boys and girls' is relevant here as well.

Short synopsis - male primary school teacher thought he treated all the kids the same. Spoiler warning - not quite true.

IIRC the teacher was open to trying to change things. It would be interesting to see a follow up.

The parents know what sex the baby is though, so that will impact how they treat that baby whether they intend it to or not.

To be honest I dont understand the gender neutral/no diffinitive sex thing.

At the end of the day those born female are given the organs to grow eggs and carry babies and those born Male have the organs to fertilise the eggs to create the babies

This is irrespective of whether they play football or do ballet, play with cars or dolls.

I grew up playing with a whole array of toys, occasionally I played mummy's and daddy's and sometimes I played super heroes. I have always got on better with the male species and still enjoy a whole variety of activities that are also enjoyed by both Male and female. As an adult I dont feel ridiculed for wearing tshirts and jumpers found In the "mens" section or driving race cars.

My dd will be brought up the same, to enjoy whatever she wants, to try whatever she wants, to wear whatever she wants and love whoever she wants. But at the end of the day she has female reproductive organs and is therefore a she/her

If someone else can explain to me why it would be better for us to be referred to as them/they then please try because so far nothing has convinced me so far.

The fact they didn’t say ‘the child wears unisex clothes and has neutral toys’ says a lot too.

Breaking the barrier? Let little Mary play with a train and wear blue dungarees, you attention seeking dimwits.

Those parents can't treat that child as in any way outside gender because they're so wedded to gender as a concept that they intend to just flip from one stereotype from the other from day to day. Not sure what that's meant to achieve other than making the parents feel a bit smug.

I feel sorry for the child.

What will they tell them when they ask ‘am I a boy or a girl, or when they come home crying from nursery because the other kids are taking the mickey because they say ‘I don’t know’ when asked?

Yes dear, all children are special.

THe only advantage of using they rather than he or she that I can see is that it could ( in conjunction with neutral names like Sam) prevent people making ass7mptions about people before they meet them.

It works online. If you contribute to software coding things using a clearly female name, your code contribution will receive little positive feedback. However, women who use a masculine or neutral persona tend to have higher than average positive feedback. People are rating code based on the assumed sex of the contributor, and when sex is removed , we tend t see women coding particularly well ( probably because they have to be extra good to succeed in overcoming the predujice to get into and work in the field)

ALthough it may be that by reducing the emphasis on sex linguistically, we start to train ourselves to reduce how many sex based assumptions we subconciously make

She said: "Zoomer will most likely choose a gender by the time they are three or four.

That's from the Sun article.

What happens if little Zoomer is biologically female but chooses the male gender (or the opposite)? Will they then feel the need to change their body to match?

If they aren’t bright enough to realise that gender is a load of nonsensical stereotypes it’s amazing they managed to procreate at all.

If you want to resist the insidious consequences of gender stereotyping, you teach your children from a very young age that apart from very few biological functions, your sex does not dictate what you do, wear, play with or like. And the older you get, the more you teach them about that. In the meantime, you parent accordingly.

What Charlie said.

Being the sex that you are is part of your understanding of yourself as a person, the world, all sorts of things. Why are these parents messing about with this? It seems quite abusive. Babies obviously won’t care but even quite small toddlers do have an interest in who is a woman, man, girl or boy.

In my experience, parents who do this stuff where they supposedly reject gender are totally on board with transing kids. It does seem illogical.

I was on a parenting board at one time, they were always on about gendered toys and clothes, and the logic of their thinking was bizarre. The parents were unwilling to give their girls pink toys or princess items, even if asked for. Boys however were encouraged to use that stuff. The rationale was that gender stereotypes were bad. Dozens of pics of little boys in girls leggings.

But the moment a boy seemed really drawn to "girl" stuff, they would start talking about whether he was trans and really a girl.

It was the first time I'd seen that but it's been repeated again and again.

These parents are both involved in acrobatic theatre and this feels like one big performance piece.

Naming the child Zoomer on top of everything else is just mean.

Ach in a few months time that baby is going to be your average pant throwing, clothes refusing toddler with the favourite word "NO" and those parents are in for a harsh reality check.

I was thinking about sex related issues and how common issues like nappy rash, toilet training, infections and of course the undescended testicle has been in my parenting circles, you really can't get far into parenthood without acknowledging sex differences!