You know what? I hope you're all wrong

[TerfTalk]

Yes, I hope that you and I are all wrong about our concerns.

I hope that the other side are correct. I hope that there is a "lady" brain, and a "blue" brain, and a "non-binary" brain. I hope that sterilizing children is the right thing to do. I hope that telling gay and autistic children that they were born in the wrong body was the right thing to do. I hope that gaslighting women was correct. I hope that telling lesbians they were "bigots" was right.

No really, I mean it.

Because if we aren't wrong, if gender is bullshit, there's been a lot of lives lost.

I want to be wrong, and I say this to TRAs all the time.

I don't think a need for religion is an exact analogy, because that can include a lot of different human urges. Many religious people aren't superstitious, but take metaphysics seriously, and I wouldn't really compare that to transgender ideology. I don't really think religious people are any more likely to be inclined to superstition than anyone else.

I'm not sure I'd say the desire for mysticism was really similar either, mysticism is largely about a direct experience of the elements of reality that we normally experience discursively. For example where most of us do mathematics through a sort of logical process, there are people who seem to be able to have a direct intuitive experience of mathematical truths. It's also about seeing the interconnection and interdependency attached to things we usually think of as separate. I don't see anything like that in gender talk, really. Maybe a sort of shallow psycho-babble but to call it mysticism would elevate it too much.

I do think the smug moral satisfaction of feeling woke is a lot like the smug moral satisfaction of feeling pious, and is similarly socially and personally destructive.
And for many people, liberal progressivism and a little science has become the sum of their "religion" or what they believe about the world, about ethics, about their interior life. But is what is really a political theory really robust enough to play all of those roles? I don't really think so, but most people don't spend much time thinking about the foundations of that theory, or of science either, and they seem to avoid thinking about implications that go farther than politics would go.

As a result, they are very vulnerable to dodgy politics, ethics, and science.

I've posted this before, but I still have a rapidly diminishing hope that an articulate and honest trans rights advocate will come on here and change my mind with a well-reasoned and logical point of view. It would be nice to be on the side of being nice!

A couple of posters have briefly gotten my hopes up, for about 3 seconds before it descends into bad faith arguments, straw men, sea lioning, etc. Like bashing your head against a wall.

Never gonna happen, I fear...

the girl who says "I am a boy" gets told, no, you are a girl, but you can be a train driver if you want.

I was brought up like this. My dad loves science and we used to do chemistry set stuff together. I loved his model railway set. We still share a love of trains especially steam engines. I also identified more with male characters in many books (not always but often).

I was always secure in being a girl though. I loved dresses and frills and pink (to my feminist mum's initial dismay). I know some kids wanted to be boys. Interesting to know if their parents were/are less encouraging of them enjoying stereotyped boy stuff?

I genuinely wonder if Stonewall definition would apply to me (now and when I was a kid). What would they say? Loving trains, science, football, but also pink, dresses, and frills?

Thanks for elaborating on that concept, Goosefoot. You've raised some important distinctions.

Thymejuice does this answer your question?

This is Stonewall info aimed at children and young people today.

www.youngstonewall.org.uk/lgbtq-info/gender-identity

Gender expression – this is the way that you express your gender! For example, if you identify as a girl you might want to dress in a certain way or read certain books. A lot of people might not be aware of their gender expression, as it’s a natural way that we express ourselves

But we are not. Most of society knows it. Most of supporters of trans lobbying know it, they just go along with it to be polite and "live and let live" without thinking about it.

Dodo I'd have been tempted to video their reactions and put it on YouTube. I bet it was quite a sight!

I've posted this before, but I still have a rapidly diminishing hope that an articulate and honest trans rights advocate will come on here and change my mind with a well-reasoned and logical point of view. It would be nice to be on the side of being nice!

A couple of posters have briefly gotten my hopes up, for about 3 seconds before it descends into bad faith arguments, straw men, sea lioning, etc. Like bashing your head against a wall.

Exactly the same for me! I want to be wrong about this. I want to be nice, I am generally a 'Liberal' person and it feels weird to be siding with some pretty questionable people and being polar opposite to people who I otherwise largely agree with.

I'm not wrong though. And that is really actually very scary.

I hope we are wrong too but well, of course I know we aren't. It would be nice when it does blow up if people remember it was GC women who spoke up, many of them radical feminists, lesbian, middle aged....the kind long detested. Won't happen but I can dream.

I really hope I'm wrong too and children will not be hurt, I am not sure anything could convince me the right thing is happening though when there are already detransistioners speaking out.

A lot of people might not be aware of their gender expression, as it’s a natural way that we express ourselves

"Even if you don't think you have a gender identity, you do! And we're going to explain what it is! Anyone who tries to opt out gets the hose again."

That's a good point about the right wing. I guess that could be compared to grooming gangs: the left ignored and downplayed them, leading those affected to turn to the right wing. This is used against the left wing all the time, and they have no good excuse as to why they let it happen (and they did let it happen).

I want to be nice, I am generally a 'Liberal' person and it feels weird to be siding with some pretty questionable people and being polar opposite to people who I otherwise largely agree with.

You have been made to feel like that because the political class has betrayed us.
Mention any party, and someone will be along to explain how there are plenty of people in the party who agree with us but they can't say anything because xyz. It's pathetic, frankly.
I have huge respect for Joanna Cherry, Joan McAlpine and the handful of other politicians who have spoken up, but at the end of the day they are just doing their job.
It's not exactly controversial to disagree with the official party line atm.
I know they are all 'busy with Brexit', but how much time does it take to send a couple of tweets in support of women's rights or ask what happened to the inquiry into why so many children want to transition?

You're right @ThePurported

Once all of this is exposed, only UKIP can say "we told you so..."

I am more confused now! Could be my sleep deprived brain. Gender expression. So is that saying girls and women dress a certain way, boys and men another? Traditionally that's the case perhaps. But isn't this gender stereotyping? I think, by the stonewall definition, I'm non binary.

Thymejuice according to the genderism religion, everyone has a gender identity - even if they don't know it.

Your gender expression is how you manifest outwardly that you have this soul... I mean... gender identity. Which is kinda pointless because they also say no one else can determine your gender identity, so all that self-absorbed effort to get your gender expression exactly right with hormones and surgery so it reflects your true self doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. Since no one will have a clue what the fuck you are.... 100 genders and all that..... so you have to become an insufferable arse going around telling everyone about your gender identity and pronouns and claiming literal violence if they get it wrong or refuse to comply with your dumb religion.

Anyway.... I suppose in this queer universe, you could technically follow every single gender stereotype but simply use a different gender label and voila! you've smashed the patriarchy! What a brave rebel!

What gender critical feminists are arguing for is that your body doesn't dictate your clothing or your interests or your career.

They’re the superficial aspects of gender. Clinics provide physical and biochemical treatments. People can already wear what they like.

If genderism survives it will be because the majority of women and men perform it. Not because of the

Stonewall's definition of gender expression relies completely on gender stereotypes, there's no need for any confusion. If you don't fit very neatly into the two categories you are probably non-binary or trans. Which is a huge pile of baloney.

'You don't understand Trans things because you're Cis, Mum.'
'No, I'd say from your list I'm probably either agender, bigender, nonconforming or a panromantic demiboi, don't you think? Only they never told us about all these genders so I didn't know it before.'
'You still don't understaaaand, Mum!'

I love it. Unfortunately Mums aren't human in the way other people are, so it won't be possible for you to choose a gender.

Non binary is really the new Gender non conformity. Only this generation don’t only reject rigid gender roles and gendered clothes etc. They also reject labels like ‘man’ and ‘woman’. It may be a passing fad or not.
History will tell one day I guess.

By the Stonewall definition I'm not sure I know anyone who isn't non-binary.

Non binary is really the new Gender non conformity. Only this generation don’t only reject rigid gender roles and gendered clothes etc. They also reject labels like ‘man’ and ‘woman’.

But 'man' and 'woman' aren't just labels. They're words with actual meanings. 'Non-binary', on the other hand, is simply a label devoid of meaning.

Aren’t all words labels ultimately? Non binary means whatever the majority of people say it means.