Middle ground

[HDDD]

I've been trying to follow conversations online in regard to gender critical thought, pronouns, selfID, transrights, lesbian erasure etc. And all I can find is extreme views on both sides. Is there a middle ground? Is it here? Is Twitter too toxic? I want to be informed not screamed at.

Et tu, Dog, et tu?

🤣

Thanks, Rufus

As you might guess, he didn’t kill me. He chose to let me go. I consider myself very lucky. But I have no scales in front of my eyes about men who appear sympathetic.

The Lisak study found that 10% of men have committed rape once and 5% of men have committed multiple rapes. Another study, sorry no cite, found that 60% of men said they’d rape if they knew they could get away with it.

And none of that accounts for the men who commit the more numerous offences like voyeurism, exposure, or groping.

Women who insist males will be perfectly polite and not a problem in female spaces are stunningly naive — so naive that they sound to me like children. OR, more likely, they’re very privileged or have been very lucky, or their women friends who aren’t so privileged or lucky choose not to share certain info with those they know won’t hear.

I frankly am quite tired of hearing of what males won’t do. Or worse, what they will do anyway, as in from Ruth Hunt, that we will just have to accept.

Well it was a bit of a stretch lang

But it was agree with a yep

Or type something more wordy

Just a dreadful thing to go through bicker

Lang is very cool but has some VERY unpleasant tastes in food

Some things are best not mentioned until the newbies have settled in properly.....

Here for Lang too.

Astonishing how clear-eyed, plain speech from a woman is seen as unpleasant.

I know it’s one of the rules of misogyny that women advocating for themselves are selfish, and another rule that feminism must be useful to men or its exclusionary, worthless, or mean.

Where is TheBewilderness when we need her?

Oh yes: banned. Because even on FWR, women must tiptoe in the correct direction around male feelings.

The new posters here have NO idea how many good women we’ve lost here because of that.

What are good reasons to transition, Fieldofgreycorn? And what do gender clinics aim to do?

There’s not much point in having the discussion. You simply do not believe there’s such a thing as gender identity. The NHS/ mental health professions do.

Given there is more than likely a biological component, and transition can improve functioning, it is not considered a delusion.

Did you read, I think it needs to go in OPs! Those who regularly use the fwr in adopting it as a protocol, would promote its regulsr use, right?

I assumed that you had misunderstood the problem, which is that people post threads asking regulars to educate them.

I am sick to the back teeth of people telling 'regulars' that they are doing it wrong, and to do X, Y or Z in order to do it right.

By all means, start a thread that does it right and lead by example.

Does it improve functioning? Are there studies to show an improvement in mental health? Reduction in suicidal thoughts?

A biological component does not mean innate, born with. It can result from stress and training. Eg the brains of London cabbies.

The question is more, is gender identity innate or is it a result of environment? The fact that so many people , especially older people,don’t have one suggests environment. The fact that gender identity and trans varies across time and culture again suggest environment.

Iwe have so little idea what it really is, and no reliable treatment proven.

I would avoid the word delusion, which I think can trivialise a serious mental health issue, but I would treat it like any other dysmorphia.

Well, when r0 was around she would regularly link Break it down for me in every new question thread. Unfortunately she is otherwise engaged right now. Many of us who have been here for ages aka 'the regulars' (god that sounds like a battalion) have no objection whatsoever to others picking up the baton and running with it. In fact that is kind of the point of solidarity in feminism - when the shit knocks one of us over, another sister steps up and carries on. That is how it's always worked.

Seriously though, call Lang unpleasant all you want, she really won't give a fuck. Bring up WBH and it's hissy fits at dawn.

I want a 'joining the dots' thread written by someone new.

Who sees it as a newbie sees it.

Who is going to step up?

You simply do not believe there’s such a thing as gender identity. The NHS/ mental health professions do.

No, I don't believe there's such a thing as 'gender identity'. The fact that nobody can ever explain what it is without either resorting to regressive stereotypes or saying it's a 'feeling' that some people have, indicates to me that I am right.

Do you think that the majority of doctors, mental health professionals and other people in healthcare hold this belief, which is similar to a religious belief (no proof, simply faith based)?

I just have some caution about dismissing these people because I fear it could be a part of how their mind is built up and not something that could be cured with therapy etc, so the kindest way to allow them happiness is to allow them to do with their (adult) body what they will.

Right. Is it just me who's seeing this? This attitude is the reason we still have rape and paedophilia and sexual assault and domestic violence. We care too much about their potential future happiness so we let them get away with it, with nary a thought for the happiness they'll destroy in others.

Because we think they can't be fixed so we just shrug and let them get on with it. That's the mainstream mindset.

As for what the middle ground ought to look like - based on this thread and many others might I suggest our very own Rufusthebewilderedreindeer as a role model for those wondering how to connect with the middle ground?

Seriously, she's got it made. She's totally happy with her lack of knowledge because she knows she's in the place that fills in the gaps. And she's totally happy being here even though her communication style isn't identical to everyone else's - which means she doesn't get sucked into a flaming row. She intuitively gets that the other regulars aren't trying to get one up on her or externalise any negative emotions onto her, so she never does it in response.

She's fucking teflon coated, and it's brilliant, it means she can keep engaging and keep getting what she needs from the space while helping to create and maintain it. It's awesome. And everyone else is receptive because we implicitly understand that's what's happening.

If you need courage to look outwards and speak up you have to be more Magdalen. But if you need courage to look inwards and listen properly, you really need to be more Rufus.

Oh, you incorrectly assumed me

I guess that was an apology then. Accepted with grace, tentacles.

I only suggested that those that post regularly do it as a way forward to help others from misunderstandings that can disrupt threads, because this will reach more posters.

Tbh, was it worth it for the hassle Ive had?!

Ironic considering the OP here.

I don't WANT anyone to do anything, I wanted to agree with OP that I too find this difficult and that it would technically be more helpful if people could respond to comments asking for more information with either the answer or simply not answer it if they don't feel like helping, rather than being snarky. Not that they should have to explain if they don't want to, but that because they are not willing to or can be deliberately hostile it is hard to understand and curious people will drift away.

I never normally reply on this topic anyway, I just did on this because I was heartened to see someone had the same experience as me. Do what you want, it's not my business. I was offering solidarity to somebody else. I'll do what I usually do, and never engage with posts on this topic.

Delusions are serious mental health disorder. But I am not sure gender dysphoria counts as a delusion though.

But most studies looking at wellbeing after transition only consider a very short term (

You simply do not believe there’s such a thing as gender identity. The NHS/ mental health professions do.

The NHS /mental health professions are part of the patriarchal status quo.

They have medicalised the problem of people being too resistant to gendered socialisation to fit into the patriarchal status quo effectively enough to integrate into society.

They have turned women asserting our humanity in the face of male oppression into a fucking medical disorder.

I only suggested that those that post regularly do

You are missing the point completely.

Either post regularly yourself and do it your way. Or leave others to do it theirs.

Tbh, was it worth it for the hassle Ive had?!

Hassle? I've been doing this years. A couple of posts in response is practically nothing. If you feel that anyone posting threads needs to have a specific link in it, then perhaps when you post your threads you can put the link in it.

Or even better? Do a thread on 'joining the dots'.

Most left leaning but also sane person would support a ‘third space’ solution in theory but would be massive undertaking in practice retrofitting all spaces previously not considered particularly bad. And massively inefficient economically solely to accommodate a tiny part of the populace’s wishes.

However it wouldn’t be a solution if it could be done as it’s not acceptable to them anyway. They will only accept trans women are women (and not particularly shouted so loudly) trans men are men. The ‘non binary’ types might accept a third space but the others won’t. Nothing less than being in your bathroom, your prison cells, your refuges and changing rooms will do

Oh my goodness, thank you tyro

I never normally reply on this topic anyway, I just did on this because I was heartened to see someone had the same experience as me. Do what you want, it's not my business. I was offering solidarity to somebody else. I'll do what I usually do, and never engage with posts on this topic.

Or you could start a thread on 'joining the dots'?

It really is fucking annoying when people come on here and tell the regulars they are doing it all wrong, and then the people telling the regulars they are doing it wrong then say 'but I never post on here anyway'.

If it is really so bad why aren't you making the effort to put your side across to help all the people who don't understand.

It's like people that moan about the club but never volunteer to run the club because it's all a bit too hard work.

I wanted to agree with OP that I too find this difficult

The OP has gone off to read the break it down for me thread. Why don't you do the same instead of asking people to post it all again on here?

Ah, so the women who have responded testily are not really allowed to do that and should either be helpful or stay away, but you can repeatedly post the same complaint that has been answered over and over, and add in a little kick of self pity snark?

Seriously, I've been fairly reasonable and measured on this thread, but I'm really not getting the need to be convinced that women's rights are paramount to feminists. If you're curious (directed to any woman reading this) take some time out and read FWR. BIDFM has been referred to loads. It's a good start. But honestly, the women here aren't gurus. If you care about liberating women, you have to put the work in. It's just that simple. There isn't a cliffs notes or a spell kit available.