Middle ground

[HDDD]

I've been trying to follow conversations online in regard to gender critical thought, pronouns, selfID, transrights, lesbian erasure etc. And all I can find is extreme views on both sides. Is there a middle ground? Is it here? Is Twitter too toxic? I want to be informed not screamed at.

That is a brilliant post BickerinBrattle. Yes to it all, especially the last paragraph.

I feel like we're going to end up with a sort of alcoholic lassi. But with goats milk.

Milk vodka. www.masterofmalt.com/vodka/black-cow/black-cow-pure-milk-vodka/

You can make milk liquor at home too - it’s been on my list of things to try.
www.thekitchn.com/a-sweet-treat-homemade-milk-li-138124

Well said, Bickerin.

This should be pinned at the top of FWR board.

To both the milky vodka and the behavior of trans activists.

It's okay to call someone by the pronouns of their choice as a courtesy. It's not okay for it to be legislated.

This is my middle ground; Trans people deserve their own spaces and I will fight and fight for these (just as our sisters did for us) but they will not take our space. It isn’t negotiable for some though is it? We could have been such good allies, but we can’t be erased like this.

What a great post BickerinBrattle - quite overwhelming to see it all written like that.
Might I urge anyone from the middle or either side to find the time to write today to their MP about the awful trans pupil guidelines that the EHRC are about to impose on schools - if these guidelines are allowed to go through, the marginalisation of girls will be complete. They are truly awful.
All the information needed can be found at the end of this thread in the post by GColdtimer -
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3692358-Girls-must-bow-to-trans-rights-in-new-rules-for-schools?reverse=1

Trans people deserve their own spaces and I will fight and fight for these (just as our sisters did for us)

Why? When they don't want them?

Why not spend that time fighting to maintain the spaces won for us by our sisters?

Everyone should read that superb post by BickerinBrattle

Adding to the round of applause for Bickerin. It's sobering to see it all written out like that.

I'm happy to support people who consider themselves 'trans' in their attempts to build their own spaces from the ground up.

They're not having ours though. It's theft, pure and simple.

There are enough women out there who haven't hit the wall and started resisting yet, who are willing to accommodate and support trans people to have happier and more productive lives. The refusal to accept a third space as a possibility means there's only one way for those women to help.

It's exploitative. We have compassion and empathy, we want to help - but the only form of help they will allow themselves to acknowledge is our submission.

Would BickerinBrattle be willing to start a new thread with that post? I'm not sure how to reframe it but the post really does highlight why women get pissed off at being asked to "be nice"

It's far too good a post to be lost within a thread.

Seconded

Thirded.

I know what is meant by 'fight and fight for third spaces'. I think the kind of women you find on FWR are the ones who have years of experience in writing the letters, going to the marches, fund raising for refuges and all the rest of it, and had they been approached early on with a request to help trans people have their own spaces apart from male ones that meets their need for privacy, dignity, safety, the ability to breach gender stereotypes without facing toxic masculinity, there would have been a huge source of organised support and sympathy here.

But the aim has been a very hostile, very anti woman take over bid, hostile colonization.

After years of that, I wholly get Lang's point. My response at this point is meh. I'm no longer interested in helping or what needs need meeting, my energy and efforts and time are reserved wholly for women, because I really do see clearly now how ingrained and how serious the oppression of women is. Women haven't got time to bail men out with this one, and it's characteristic of the patriarchy and misogyny that it's assumed that women will always suck up the effort and the labour and fix everyone else's problems for them before getting around to their own.

Liberation is largely about saying no.

Would BickerinBrattle be willing to start a new thread with that post? I'm not sure how to reframe it but the post really does highlight why women get pissed off at being asked to "be nice"

It would get deleted as 'not in the spirit' and Bicker would get binned.

@BickerinBrattle

I'm atting you just in case you miss this.

Please start a new thread with that. Or let me know if you are publishing it anywhere else.

Over the last few years, people will often list things that have happpened, but as they became too numerous, it felt overwhelming.

You've just done it. And it's mind blowing. I know about all those things, and it's still mind blowing to see it written out like that. Do you mind if I share that elsewhere?

Fourthed.

After years of that, I wholly get Lang's point.

My point is twofold: women's rights are under attack so I'll be prioritising those, thank you very much; why fight for a "solution" that the political transgender wing has already rejected and when that wing has captured policy making? Utter waste of effort aside from a virtue signalling bit of self congratulation as to one's niceness.

Utter waste of effort aside from a virtue signalling bit of self congratulation as to one's niceness.

The people demanding that we do it never seem to want to do it themselves either. There seems to be an epidemic of that, people deeply convinced of their own niceness and other women's horribleness who're all about delegating work to the nasty women that they don't seem to have any intention of doing themselves. Like they're the generals and we're the insubordinate troops with ideas above our station.

True kittens

Great post bickering

Why not spend that time fighting to maintain the spaces won for us by our sisters?

My point is threefold. (And thank you all for doing the legwork on the pointing out the first two points, over and over again, so the third point could emerge.)

What are we doing to prepare for the next assault?

The function of genderisation - of language, of clothing, of hobbies, of careers, of all of it - is to give the dominant male a concealed-carry permit for his inbuilt rape weapon.

So I show my daughter the photos, and I draw her attention to the reality of the sexed body, and I give her the words. I'm doing everything I can to ensure that when she comes up against this, she's got the words she needs to express the thought "yes, but clearly you have a rape-weapon-inbuilt body, and this makes you unsafe."

Dunno what else to do, but training our daughters to see right through this shit and not submit to it is one of the fundamental steps. As is training our sons to manage their feelings without externalising them.

It's the pronouns are Royphenol issue, innit? Take away the words to describe who's of risk at what and why and you've made it much harder for the potential prey group to protect themselves.

Novembersbeam

Can I suggest some consciousness-raising? That might help you understand that langcleg is simply speaking plainly. If you don't like what she says, you need to examine any feminist credentials you may claim to have.

Calling langcleg "deeply unpleasant" says so much more about you than it does about her.

And please - this is a fast-moving, open, discussion board. You post - it's there for anyone to respond to. Internet Forums 101.

bickeringbattle

Excellent post, thank you. It's a superb - if chilling - summation of the situation.

Have a little watch of this Novembers...it might help you get some answers.

Seventhed or eighthed bickering ...

Probably pointless now but some notes I made reading this...

Re feeling 'sorry' or empathy for trans people; Do you feel as sorry for the AGP lot? Look at #girlslikeus on twitter.

Gender dysphoria doesn't have to be treated with transition.

"Things go wrong in the womb" well this is a sweeping medical statement but when it comes to dysphoria, any dysphoria, it's an mismatch between the body and how the brain perceived the body. The baby wouldn't have had that a birth, it would have been absorbed via social interaction and self perception.

Regarding brains; they're flexible and plastic and can learn new things that actually change the structure, areas enlarge or diminish in long term states such as anxiety or depression or life devoted to a skill such as a taxi driver with 'the knowledge' v one without, or bilingualism.

Gendered environments create gendered brains.

A good link to read regarding brains:

http://sfonline.barnard.edu/neurogenderings/eight-things-you-need-to-know-about-sex-gender-brains-and-behavior-a-guide-for-academics-journalists-parents-gender-diversity-advocates-social-justice-warriors-tweeters-facebookers-and-ever/

There's clearly an attempt to plea to lurkers; which is fair enough but most are past that here and in various other online and offline groups.

Women are sick of being told how to act.

I can absolutely have empathy for someone with dysphoria, I've experienced a level of body or rather face dysmorphia myself since I was 6, but as usual there's a massive absence of Transmen discussed on this thread.

Being female they're included in feminism, esp as often they de transition realising they might be lesbians or were reacting to toxic masculinity and toxic femininity/ female objectification.

The men aren't included. Nowt to do with feminism.

Men need to deal with that issue.

Amazing post bicker

I too would like to see a new thread for it.

I don't think enough people are thinking clearly about the consequences of the othering and hate directed at non compliant women. Your post spells it out. These warnings should be taken seriously. Enough men see violence as justified for political and ideological differences. IRA, ISIS, Soho and Brixton, not to mention the week in week out violence against current and former partners. And that's just local to me.