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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Things I have learned in Feminist Chat

94 replies

nettie434 · 12/09/2019 21:34

Just listening to a programme on impartial journalism on Radio 4. Yes, I know some people will be giving a hollow laugh Grin

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0008b84

To be fair, the panel includes Robert Peston and Julia Hartley Brewer. I’m enjoying it. At the beginning Helen Lewis referred to the Overton Window. I had never heard of it until I started reading posts on here.

It’s just one thing among many I’ve learned on Feminist Chat. I wondered if anyone else could pinpoint things they’ve only found out about here.

OP posts:
ALittleBitofVitriol · 13/09/2019 22:47

Duper's delight.

I've learned just how predictable these misogynist narcissists are, that they can't resist an opportunity to show who they really are.

And that even their blatant, gleeful nastiness will be defended/excused/ignored, while we are continually coerced to be nicer to the man with his giant stiletto boot on our neck...

BarbaraStrozzi · 13/09/2019 22:53

And that even their blatant, gleeful nastiness will be defended/excused/ignored, while we are continually coerced to be nicer to the man with his giant stiletto boot on our neck...

A very timely comment if I may say so.

ALittleBitofVitriol · 13/09/2019 23:04

Indeed Barbara
Is there any instance ever recorded, in the entire history of humanity, where McKinnon compromised with GC feminists?

TheBullshitGoesOn · 13/09/2019 23:11

I have also learned how far some women and some women's organisations will go to appease men. And that they will happily throw other women under a bus to achieve it.

ErrolTheDragon · 13/09/2019 23:15

McKinnon may be particularly vengeful at the moment because - despite being locked so I assume not 'vandalism' - there's recently been more editing of the wiki page to include thesis and publication titles ... can't complain about those surely but maybe by know is regretting them ... and a 'controversy' section.

NonnyMouse1337 · 14/09/2019 09:08

This forum is one of my favourite places on the internet. There is such a wealth of intelligent, knowledgeable and strong minded women with razor sharp wits.

I used to be a passionate 'feminist' when I was younger, even though I didn't know all the terminology or in-depth knowledge and history, but I could see the patriarchy and hypocrisy all around me. I was passionate about women's rights because I lived in places like Kuwait and India where the hatred for women is blatant and prominent and enforced with an iron fist.

Then I moved to the UK, which for all its faults, is a much better place and got busy with establishing a new life for myself. I slowly started getting more politically aware and I knew there was still a lot of sexism, except it was better hidden and subtle. Still, I naively thought the major battles had been won and there would be incremental but steady progress.
I also started to notice that the 'feminism' I was seeing around me was particularly insipid and uninspiring. Very navel gazing and self absorbed about identities... and all about being 'nice' and 'inclusive' by changing the spellings of words and being 'outraged' by controversial arguments so the only way to address those is by censoring and de-platforming. It really didn't sit right with me and I felt very out of step with this brand of feminism. There was very little 'intelligent' conversation and debate. All about policing language and thought and expanding feminism to include everyone while centering no-one. Very rudderless and ultimately meaningless. Obsessed with their 'feminist poetry slams' as a way of 'smashing the patriarchy' but unable to have diverse, well-thought out arguments and debates. It seems more fashionable these days to say you are a feminist, but I see very little progress or achievements made overall.

As my doubts and unease about trans stuff started to increase, I felt even more uncomfortable with this feminism. Luckily, I stumbled across this place and it was awe inspiring to see a much different feminism in action. Bold and intelligent women speaking their mind and disagreeing with each other as well as agreeing. Exchanges that are not focused on being 'nice to everyone' but actually putting forward arguments that stand on their own because they are based on facts, analysis of the opposing view etc.
I've learned a lot by lurking here and reading and absorbing the collective wisdom here. It is so good to see women being centered in feminist discourse, as it should be. The passion and righteous anger is not being censored or toned down so as not to 'offend' delicate sensibilities.

It's been scary too as my eyes have been opened to how widespread the institutional and regulatory capture has been with regards to trans and gender identity ideology, queer theory and postmodernism. The fact that this ideology affects every woman in the world, whether she realises it or not, as well as LGB people, children and other vulnerable groups like those who are autistic is not something you can turn away from once you learn about it.

I am angry about many other issues in society and will do my part to push for change. However, there's something about trans and queer ideology that I find so deeply offensive as a woman and problematic in a way that I can't articulate and I have never experienced before. This... hostile colonisation and appropriation of womanhood and women's struggles and suffering. Of perverting the concept of woman from the biological to some essence or innate feminine feeling..... It's like the patriarchy has been repackaged with bright colours and glitter and being forced down women's throats - being told what to say and what to think and that it's good for us. I'm not buying it anymore.

Anyway I've rambled on enough. I have so much still to learn and I am immensely grateful to the women here who contribute regularly and are so articulate and incisive in their responses. Thank you for reminding me that feminism is still alive and kicking - the kind that is about women and for women.

ErrolTheDragon · 14/09/2019 09:38

A great ramble up the Peak!

Daughterofmabel · 14/09/2019 10:37

Most of the above. Have been away from this forum and sm for a while but back now and so glad. Reading these posts makes me realise Im not alone in how I feel and act re womens opression etc. I work for a very woke educational establishment and have distanced myself from many female friends who just dont get it. I am better at speaking out now and damn the consequences. As to the below Object have a cut and paste reponse to govs consultation. Can post link if people want to respond.
That my unease with surrogacy is not bigoted, or squeamish. That I am in fact completely right to think it is abominable, and thanks to FWR I now have the words to articulate why I think that

Tyrotoxicity · 15/09/2019 13:31

I was exposed to sufficient data, so my pattern-recognition systems could refine themselves along the sexism=bad axis. Like, I got that it was bad, but now I've learned to spot the pattern and see it in the real world.

Also gathered a lot of data for refining my instinctive effective-communications protocols.

Finally absorbed enough data to click "I am not the problem" into my brain deeply enough to make progress on reversing my mind-polarity and getting out of the spiralling doomloop of trauma+depression.

So that's consciousness-raising and trauma-recovery. Have to acknowledge the twin pillar of the process - the Relationships board. The two really do work in tandem around here. But FWR was crucial, so thank you all!

And I learned that some people really honestly do like milk warm, and that's okay.

Tyrotoxicity · 15/09/2019 14:09

The Principles of Patriarchy

  1. That there is no consistency in the moderation and you have to keep permanently on your fucking toes

All credit to Rufus for distilling the essence of Rule One. All else follows from this point.

littlemeitslyn · 15/09/2019 19:34

Not cui

Ereshkigal · 16/09/2019 00:08

And I learned that some people really honestly do like milk warm, and that's okay.

With bananas and weetabix, and that really isn't.

Tyrotoxicity · 16/09/2019 07:55

I haven't got as far as being appalled by the banana and weetabix angle yet. It's taken me this long to get over the whole warm milk part. Give me chance, Eresh. I just need some WBH consciousness-raising and I'll catch up with you. Grin

Ereshkigal · 16/09/2019 08:11

Don't let Lang bamboozle you.

LangCleg · 16/09/2019 09:03

Oh that's right. Pick on me just because it's the start of the week.

That's what I've learned on FWR: far too many folk are WBHphobe.

Tyrotoxicity · 16/09/2019 18:21

What I learned from FWR is: far too many people think there's a really real thing called right and wrong, and instead of digging the cosmic groove and realising morality is a social construct, they dig in and dig in until eventually it all explodes into a terrible weetabixy mess clogging up everything.

Which is obviously a terribly Wrong thing to do.

(That right there is where we need a cats-bum-face emoticon. Can someone alert the higher-ups?)

popehilarious · 16/09/2019 23:47

Clicking around on posts from about 2 years ago, when I first started getting involved (i namechange all the time) I found there used to be a 'gender critical wiki' set up over this thread but which isn't there any more Shock
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2907672-the-gender-critical-manifesto?pg=3

Also I must thank Datun for engaging with my first toe-dipping post (I did actually ask a lot of specific questions!) which illuminated me no end.

CountFosco · 17/09/2019 05:30

As to the below Object have a cut and paste reponse to govs consultation. Can post link if people want to respond.

Oh, yes please.

Deliriumoftheendless · 17/09/2019 06:51

Lang like Dana Scully I’m opening myself up to extreme possibilities, so I’m prepared to try WBH.

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