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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I'm going to a talk by Alice Roberts tomorrow, what should I ask her?

169 replies

Destinysdaughter · 11/09/2019 18:59

She's speaking at the British Science Festival tomorrow at Warwick University, I got myself a ticket only because there's been some controversy about things she's written/shared on Twitter. If there is an opportunity to ask her some questions after her talk ( which is about the perfect body, ironically), what do you think I should ask her? TBH I feel like standing up and asking her if I'm a woman, just to see what she says...

OP posts:
Craftycorvid · 11/09/2019 23:13

I’d ask her where she gets her fabulous shoes (misses point).

(On the other hand: not sure about mammals but some birds appear to change sex spontaneously/develop male characteristics.)

I always understood gender to be a fluid social construct and sex to be a continuum from male to female, but not always absolute. I’m getting on a bit now and I’ve known a lot of trans women plus a few trans men, and they were all unique, interesting folk on their own journeys. I’m a card-carrying feminist, also a humanist. I’m struggling to feel irate about the trans/feminism argument and feel mystified by the amount of ire expended on MN about this issue. I generally don’t comment on these threads, and will now retire.

RedToothBrush · 11/09/2019 23:18

Believing in medical ethics (especially for children), high standards of medical research and evidence based science is not, to my knowledge, a well known far right position.

Protecting people against abuses of power isn't, to my knowledge, a well known far right position.

Knewmee · 11/09/2019 23:20

If we can’t define women in a way that accurately reflects their biological reality-

We can’t campaign against violence against women;
We can’t campaign against FGM;
We can’t identify whether women are economically disadvantaged in the jobs market;
We can’t have laws against sex discrimination;
We can’t analyse the effects of the porn industry on girls;
We can’t identify differential offending patterns of male and female offenders;
We can’t identify the numbers of girls turning to cosmetic surgery in pursuit of the perfect body;
We can’t assess whether religions are misogynistic;
We can’t express disagreement with the policies of a country that prohibits women from leaving their homes without a man, or from driving.

And so on. And on.

So my question would be, Alice, if we can’t do any of those things, who benefits? Cui bono?

Clue: the answer is a three letter word with an E in the middle.

If you can’t be honest about what women are, you’re colluding in their oppression. That’s not kind, or progressive, or right on. It’s just colluding in oppression. Up the patriarchy!

ThePurported · 11/09/2019 23:26

Here is an extract from Hacsi's article for Alice and others who don't understand what women are on about. He is a male scientist who used to identify as a woman - perhaps you'll listen to him?

"I am an adjunct Lecturer in the Department of Epidemiology and Biostatistics at the University of California, San Francisco (UCSF). I’m an expert in clinical epidemiology, particularly in systematic review methods, epidemiologic bias and evidence quality assessment. As a researcher at UCSF, I managed the Cochrane HIV/AIDS Group for over a decade and on several occasions served as a consultant to the World Health Organization (WHO) in their HIV guideline development processes.

For about 13 years, I also masqueraded “as a woman,” taking medical measures which suggest, shall we say, that I was completely committed to that lifestyle. Most men would have recoiled from this, but in my estrogen-drug-soaked stupor it seemed like a good idea. In 2013 I stopped taking estrogen for health reasons and very rapidly came back to my senses. I ceased all effort to convey the impression that I was a woman and carried on with life.

As you may imagine, I have a lot of anger at transgenderism and its enablers, as well as an “inward bruise” (as Melville called it). I am not a happy camper. I have been badly harmed. However–as a father myself–I am far angrier that thousands of young people are being irreversibly altered and sterilized as they are inducted into a drug-dependent and medically-maimed lifestyle."
(continues)

Mwnci123 · 11/09/2019 23:34

I wouldn't ask her about something unrelated to her talk. I don't think it's cool. Also, she would only flannel on tediously about things being complicated (too complicated for you!) then get her Jesus on and exhort you to be kind like her lovely kind self. So yeah, maybe take a sick bucket or a fun 'Alice communicates science' bingo card if you really must ask her something.

Doyoumind · 11/09/2019 23:41

I don't think she's frightened of the TRAs because I think she's completely oblivious to the full debate, issues and downright disgusting behaviour of many of them. If she knew more about who she was siding with she would be far more cautious.

She's in a place many of us were at one time, where we thought trans meant really transitioning and we might kind of treat TW as women to be polite. We didn't think they would start telling us they were as female as we are, complete with fully intact male genitalia and beards. We didn't realise the implications of what was going on and the push for self ID.

OldCrone · 11/09/2019 23:58

You'd think someone with her intellect would wonder why so many left wing feminists, who had campaigned for gay and lesbian rights as well as women's rights, had suddenly turned into right wing bigots. Then start to wonder what was really going on and if she was perhaps missing some important bits of information.

If you're still here Alice, I recommend this thread as a good place to start.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

TerfTalk · 12/09/2019 00:11

Im a female scientist in the UK Alice.

You are setting back women in science 20 years. That is your legacy. Angry

CharlieParley · 12/09/2019 01:30

Wonderful that you are reading this thread Ms Roberts. You have conceded sport is a special case. I'd love to know if you would consider the following situations based on real cases I know of in the same vein:

You have a woman in your practice who has been so traumatized by male violence she cannot tolerate being in the same hospital room as any males, let alone being touched by one.

Her medical notes stipulate female HCPs only to ensure that her health needs can be met (it took three years just to get her to come to your clinic).

You have a male-bodied HCP who identifies as trans and who demands to be allowed to care for this patient as this man believes himself to be female.

What is kind in this situation? To tell this female patient she is a bigoted transphobe for correctly sexing this person as male and suffering an entirely involuntary trauma response? Will you seek to re-educate her out of her prejudiced trauma responses? Or will you follow the best practice trauma-informed and patient-centred procedures that have been in place for over a decade? Which means explaining to the male HCP that this patient's needs must come first.

(This is based on real women who self-exclude from medical services because they are so severely traumatised by male violence and on real male HCPs who put their own need for validation above patients' needs.)

Or if this is too hard:

You have a school girl so severely traumatised by male violence she has not attended school for ten months.

Through gentle but persistent therapy and one-on-one teaching, you have finally got this little girl to the point where she is ready to leave the house and receive her one-on-one tuition in a separate room in the school. Part of this therapy is to teach her to trust her instincts if something feels wrong, to listen to her fears and to help her to understand that she has not only the right to her own boundaries but also the right to assert them against all males.

She cannot yet tolerate being in the presence of her male peers, let alone adult males, but a treatment plan has been drawn up that will re-integrate her fully into school while respecting her boundaries.

She gets picked up in a taxi which by prior arrangement will only be driven by female drivers. On day four she does not come to school. It turns out the driver on that day is male but self-identifies as female.

Her boundaries have been violated once again. She has been retraumatised by being expected to be in an enclosed space with a male stranger. You've lost all progress and have to start again.

What is kind in this situation? Is the child unkind in not accepting this male's self-identity? Should she be punished for being a transphobic bigot? Or is the male driver selfish and uncaring in insisting on doing this journey when all the other male drivers have respected the arrangement?

(This is also based on a real case.)

Male violence against women and children is real. Traumatised women and children need our unequivocal, unquestioning support to recover. For 99% of them this requires female-only spaces.

Are these, like sport, also special cases where sex matters?

If yes, how traumatised do survivors have to be to qualify? If no, please explain how this squares with your appeals to kindness.

Do you understand that by including male people who identify as trans in certain spaces and under certain circumstances a number of female people will be excluded and denied help when they are at their most vulnerable?

Could you please quantify how many such survivors should be abandoned for the sake of kindness to males?

Igneococcus · 12/09/2019 06:12

"Im a female scientist in the UK Alice.

You are setting back women in science 20 years. That is your legacy."

I'm a female biologist in the UK who fully agrees with this statement.
Saying TW are women isn't getting a minor detail wrong that one could ignore, it shows a fundamental misunderstanding that throws everything else you say into doubt.

OnlineAlienator · 12/09/2019 06:53

You'd think someone with her intellect would wonder why so many left wing feminists, who had campaigned for gay and lesbian rights as well as women's rights, had suddenly turned into right wing bigots. Then start to wonder what was really going on and if she was perhaps missing some important bits of information.

Exactly!!

nettie434 · 12/09/2019 06:56

Those were incredibly powerful examples CharleyParley. Most of the time it won’t matter whether a teacher or HCP is trans or not but sometimes it will.

KatvonHostileExtremist · 12/09/2019 06:58

Any hormone imbalance whatsoever? (I've even seen some particularly batshit TRAs suggest that PCOS is a form of intersex condition).
Thanks for this Barbara
I've seen trans activists use PCOS and it's disgusting. Those BIOLOGICAL FEMALES, with cysts on their ovaries, can have a really shit time of it. I see reports of women feeling incredibly low in terms of self esteem, and that's not to mention the physical pain. It's absolutely disgusting when TRAs drag them into this. It upsets me every time. There's no low to which some people wouldn't stoop.

TheCuriousMonkey · 12/09/2019 07:01

Hi Alice, glad you're reading.

I am a lawyer who for the whole of my career has specialised in human rights and equality law. I have always championed the oppressed, marginalised and discriminated against.

I have been a feminist for as long as I could say the word.

I am not remotely right wing and I never will be.

I am not a bigot for believing in science.

I am not a bigot for wanting to protect the rights of women and girls.

I hope you stay here on Feminist Chat, read, learn, take time to understand the issues.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 12/09/2019 07:05

She isn’t just trotting out a dewy eyed ‘but TW are W! Won’t someone think of the Ts? It’s literally killing women???’.

She isn’t young woman. She’s gone for it hook, line and sinker.

I'm going to a talk by Alice Roberts tomorrow, what should I ask her?
Biscuitorcake · 12/09/2019 07:05

As Alice is president of the Humanist Society and much of her work now seems to be related to this position as far as I can see, I imagine she would be keen to avoid the same treatment as her predecessor who tweeted that ‘women don’t have penises’.

medium.com/@angelos.sofocleous94/resignation-statement-humanist-students-president-elect-719d81079028

mobile.twitter.com/sofocleous_a/status/1041729763289821186?lang=en

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 12/09/2019 07:07

The more I read from women like this the more I realise they are actually anti woman. They are the ‘men’s women’ you come across.

RuffleCrow · 12/09/2019 07:10

Ask her whether she or her husband gave birth to their kids.

RuffleCrow · 12/09/2019 07:14

Hi Alice, you've lost all credibility as far as I'm concerned. Used to be a big fan but you're making yourself look very foolish with this unscientific nonsense.

sashh · 12/09/2019 07:20

Ask her if she is intentionally making her university a laughing stock.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 12/09/2019 07:31

I feel sorry for kids whose mum is merrily trotting out that line. God helps the daughters who like playing with cars of the boys who like dolls...

BarbaraStrozzi · 12/09/2019 07:31

The thing is, she's not even consistent. She accepts that sport may be a special case. Why would it be a special case? Well, biology.

So she knows TW aren't W. But is frantically trying to shore up the house of cards. I think that's called cognitive dissonance.

DickKerrLadies · 12/09/2019 07:35

The thing is, she's not even consistent. She accepts that sport may be a special case. Why would it be a special case? Well, biology.

So she knows TW aren't W. But is frantically trying to shore up the house of cards. I think that's called cognitive dissonance.

Exactly this.

DoctorTwo · 12/09/2019 07:42

Hello Alice, under what circumstances do you think lesbians should accept penis?

Do you believe lesbians can have penises? I don't, but I'm only educated to A Level, so I'm a thicko.

FamilyOfAliens · 12/09/2019 07:44

That tweet Shock

Does she actually hate some women or just the ones who have never been men?