Girls wearing skirts not allowed into school - could only be Brighton

[Kit19]

www.theargus.co.uk/news/17886600.lewes-priory-gender-neutral-uniform-protest/

Apparently “gender neutral” means trousers aka the male default. This is utterly insane. I mean I wouldn’t have minded the choice of trousers or skirts for either sex but only trousers?

Well, here in Liverpool, quite a few children and parents of certain demographics are very tuned into labels and the like. And even if your are buying cheap clothing then there seems to be a pressure amongst the young to have the latest and next etc.

We’re in London. They are indeed into fashion, but they don’t obsess or shame each other about labels. One of my daughters friends makes her own clothes. I actually expected it when she started there but it’s turned out not to be an issue. They all love charity stores 🤷🏾‍♀️

How can we, with a straight face, argue to put females in a better position than males whilst also arguing that is downright unfair and unequal for males to ever be in a better position than females?

Why are you so insistent that "having a greater number of options to choose between" automatically translates to "is in a better position"?

Personally I don't think the choice between 'hot and uncomfortable' or 'horribly aware of own vulnerability at all times to the point I will and do self-exclude from society rather than choose this garment' is much of a choice.

In fact I think it's pretty similar to those poor schoolboys who could never really choose to wear a skirt lest they get laughed at or beaten up.

A skirt is not, according to you, an option for them.

A skirt is not an option for me either, for very similar reasons.

Yet they get shorts, so they can still be cool and comfortable.

But I don't. I have to wear trousers regardless of the temperature.

The two options you're giving boys allow them to meet both physical AND psychological needs.

The two options you're giving girls give many of us the option to meet one or the other need, but not both.

You're denying a subset of females the option of being cool and comfortable in summer - which as you already made clear is very very important for men.

If comfort in summer is so important, why are you in favour of giving the boys what they need while denying that same courtesy to girls?

You're giving the boys the better position and calling it equality.

Tyrotoxicity

Then campaign to be able to wear shorts.

Arguing for even more choices for girls while boys already have fewer choices isn't right.

The only person arguing for a set number of choices for everybody is you.

My position, which I suspect is shared by most posters, is this:

Girls and boys should both have the right to be physically comfortable. Girls and boys should both have the right to be psychologically comfortable. Neither boys nor girls should have to choose between physical or psychological discomfort.

Your suggestion of trousers-or-shorts for boys but trousers-or-skirts for girls means girls get to choose what type of uncomfortable they want to be.

And you're telling us that girls being forced to choose between one type of discomfort or the other is somehow a privilege they have over boys. Because they have more choice.

Girls being forced to choose between two shitty options isn't a fucking privilege. Especially when you're going out of your way to ensure boys get to choose between two non-shitty options.

And it could all be avoided if we could just let everyone have not two but three options to choose between - trousers, skirts, or shorts.

How about ensuring children of both sexes have the possibility of choosing something that is practical and comfortable and does not leave the wearer feeling vulnerable?

I don't understand the idea that offering all 3 to both sexes is unfair as few boy will wear a skirt.
I suspect few secondary age boys will wear shorts either tbh

Just because not many people wear something doesn't mean it's not an option for them. That's a really weird read.

At dd primary the girls can wear skirt or trousers. Not many wear trousers. That isn't the same as it not being an option.

This snoffair girls can do x we can't. Oh but we don't actually want to, we just want to restrict what girls can do is so common. Why are so many men sour grapes? Like the men in my office i talked about earlier. Men and boys can campaign for more choice. But they don't actually want to do anything different. But still resent that girls and women can do xyz and try to stop them. It's pathetic.

Well, no one had even mentioned about shorts until I said they would be a good idea for boys, now suddenly everyone's all "oh no girls must must be able to wear shorts because it's not fair if they can't and many don't want to wear skirts and it's not fair that they have to be hot in trousers'.

If you had already identified the need for shorts why didn't anyone say it initially?

Men and boys can campaign for more choice. But they don't actually want to do anything different.

I've already said my DH did. He campaigned for them to be allowed at work.

There's already boys who want to wear skirts, but currently they have to 'identify' as girls to do so. Much healthier if they can just wear what the heck they want from the available choices.

MargueritaBlue

“Kilts aren't really worn as normal daywear in Scotland save for rugby matches and weddings or an alternative to black tie (I'm not keen on the latter) ...”

Many thanks for your reply.

Trousers are fine for all. No one feels vulnerable and it is very clear. Yes, for a few hours of school on very hot days, they will be hot. Welcome to the real world!

Schools need to make sensible choices taking all pupils into account. The important thing is that the guidance is clear and easy to stick to, so that the pupils and teachers can get on with teaching and learning.

I am not a fan of uniform penalties per se. Who really cares what someone wears if they work hard and are respectful. However, where clothes are being used as a tool to be disrespectful, they have their place.

We’re in London. They are indeed into fashion, but they don’t obsess or shame each other about labels. One of my daughters friends makes her own clothes. I actually expected it when she started there but it’s turned out not to be an issue. They all love charity stores 🤷🏾‍♀️

Maybe not in your daughter's particular social circle, they don't.....
but there are children in London, as well as in Liverpool, who do not have the freedom to order clothes on-line with their friends, even if they only cost £8 an item ( ( because they are made in some miserable sweatshop in Asia). ), and those that don't have mobile phone accounts on which to do so.

Of course, not every one in Liverpool is poor; far from it; but I am acutely aware that many are. Likewise in London where the gap between haves and have nots is even more stark.

Trousers are fine for all

How many women have already said they're not fine for all women, all of the time?
Do you really think a feminism board is a good place for a bloke to pontificate on what's fine for women and girls?

Well, no one had even mentioned about shorts until I said they would be a good idea for boys, now suddenly everyone's all "oh no girls must must be able to wear shorts because it's not fair if they can't and many don't want to wear skirts and it's not fair that they have to be hot in trousers'.

Yes, you mentioned shorts first.

You're also the only person who has expressed the opinion that girls should not be allowed to wear shorts because it would not be fair to the boys.

No one would be talking about shorts at all if you hadn't mentioned how important it is, for the sake of equality, that girls be forbidden to wear them.

The point's being laboured because you don't seem to grasp that you're suggesting something sexist and touting it as "equality" as though that somehow makes it just fine and dandy.

It's pretty bloody simple.

To accommodate all boys' needs, two uniform options are required.
To accommodate all girls' needs, three uniform options are required.

Limiting the number of options to two for each sex means giving boys all of the options they need, while only giving girls two thirds of the options they need.

This is not equality, this is not feminism, and this is not fair.

Why the everliving fuck are you advocating it on a feminism board, of all places?

If you had already identified the need for shorts why didn't anyone say it initially?

You are missing the point......The point ( your point) is about fairness and equality. You introduced the idea of shorts...so why not everyone have that option? And also the option of skirts?

Trousers are fine for all

No, they are not!

Well for that matter no one has mentioned culottes.

Both dds wore culottes at primary from time to time.

They are v comfy, airy, no issues with doing handstands etc (although it's awful that little girls knickers are now in the mustn't be seen category, that is a change from when i was young and a retrograde one) and also they tend to be less clingy/ tight. Cut much better as well for secondary girls I'd have thought, who are developing womens bodies.

I mean there are multiple options and maybe schools should take a step back and rethink what they are hoping to achieve, and what messages the choices and / or restrictions send to the students.

There is also a question mark around religion.

Men/ boys clothes and styles are less constrained than womens in many religions.

Round my way we have strictish christian and jewish communities, where i only ever see the women and girls in skirts. Will there be any impact of this nature.

Trousers are fine for all

No they are not. That really is a tone- deaf post Larry.

DecomposingComposers so why don’t we have hoards of boys or their fathers campaigning for shorts? Why is it when women and girls campaign for something it also has to include males? How is that fair. If they really want shorts they can ask for them.

No they are not. That really is a tone- deaf post Larry.

Maybe just woman-deaf? A common ailment of blokes in these parts, oddly enough.

Errol,

The vast majority on this board would think a girl going to school in orange and pink striped nail polish was a feminist statement.

The actual protest seems more to have been about the sudden change in policy and the waste of money and environmental impact of thrown away skirts, not a protest that wearing skirts is a super important option in the uniform policy.

It is a mistake to assume that the fact that a view resonates on this board means it resonates in the female population.

There are jobs where women need to wear trousers and they seem to cope just fine.

The vast majority on this board would think a girl going to school in orange and pink striped nail polish was a feminist statement.

No idea where you've got that from, pretty sure you just made that up.

The actual protest seems more to have been about the sudden change in policy and the waste of money and environmental impact of thrown away skirts, not a protest that wearing skirts is a super important option in the uniform policy.

Yes... I noted upthread that was the main cause of the foulup at the school too. It's odd how the newspaper decided to focus on girls skirts instead ...

There are jobs where women need to wear trousers and they seem to cope just fine.

Sure, we make choices about our priorities. No need to put in unnecessary constraints though, is there.

pretty sure you just made that up

Im going with positive

Ridiculous to suggest trousers are Male attire. The women in the early 1900s who were verbally abused for wearing them and fought that as part of the women's rights movement would no doubt be mortified to hear women still refer to them as male attire. And rightly so, it's been acceptable for nearly 100 years now.

Can we rewind a couple of pages please?
I really struggle to believe that trousers are hard to wear for girls
Excuse me?
How many posters on this thread have explained that they and/or their daughters do find them hard to wear? Not all, not even most, but a significant number.
Why do you ‘struggle to believe’ them?
Do you have any idea at all how you sound?

Larry I’m going to assume you’ve never had a period. For many (not all) girls, periods are easier to manage in a skirt.

Other girls (as explained so well by Tyro) prefer shorts or trousers, so why not give all 3 options to both sexes.

In case you hadn’t noticed, there is no consensus between posters on this board, and no one is presuming to speak for the whole female population (unless you are)