Girls wearing skirts not allowed into school - could only be Brighton

[Kit19]

www.theargus.co.uk/news/17886600.lewes-priory-gender-neutral-uniform-protest/

Apparently “gender neutral” means trousers aka the male default. This is utterly insane. I mean I wouldn’t have minded the choice of trousers or skirts for either sex but only trousers?

larrygrylls But t shirts are worn by girls and boys totally happily. It is not ‘banning’ them to not make them a part of school uniform. The clue is in the word ‘uniform’.

When something was previously allowed as a uniform option and then removed, it is correct (if somewhat emotive I will admit) to say this option has been banned.

The school in question and every single school I am aware of here have skirts as part of the uniform. The school in question disallowed the wearing of skirts, ie they got banned.

You are right that something that has never been a uniform option such as t-shirts can't or at least shouldn't be said to have been banned.

As for the enforcement of rules. First of all, the same applies as to enforcing all other rules at school. There are a great number of options, methods and techniques available for that. If uniforms cause particular problems I would look for a problem with the policies around them and definitely not call the police on my pupils.

Whatever my personal preference is in regard to school uniforms, after 17 years of having kids at school myself and about 24 years of observing kids in various schools and following the debate around school uniforms closely, it seems evident that the best policies are grounded in an understanding of the economic restraints parents may face, a solid knowledge of child development, an awareness of teenage behaviour as well as motivations and the recognition of the at times complex power dynamics at schools.

The best uniform policies therefore set reasonable, clear and fair standards, violations are dealt with according to severity and cause, never ever treated as criminal behaviour and/or a threat to the school and they do not lose sight of the purpose of schools - to educate children and prepare them for their adult lives.

Which is why all of the schools I know for instance do not punish pupils for wearing uniform items in the wrong colour and do not punish pupils who come close to (but do not quite meet) the standard such as wearing black trainers rather than black shoes. They send home a gentle reminder or give demerits for deliberate offenders and a school-wide parent letter if standards slip a little too far across the school. And then they give it a rest. Not a one of these schools has suffered for it.

We've just about recovered from a head teacher who was a uniform fanatic. Discipline went to shit. The teacher body was frustrated and unhappy with the lack of leadership but parents got a monthly uniform letter (that none of us took any notice of after the first year). Unfortunately, our pupils got barred from local shops at lunchtime because they carried their bad behaviour with them, but hey, at least everyone knew what local school they were from thanks to a strictly enforced uniform policy.

We've thankfully got a proper tyrant now who has scared the kids straight, supports his staff but has a much more relaxed attitude towards the uniform. And the school is much better for it - as is evident from much improved results and a much, much happier atmosphere.

Saying that material wrapped around a man's waist in a tube type garment is completely different to when a woman does is is nonsensical

Yes, yes and yes. And tbh my experience of anyone saying this to a kilt wearing Scotsman is their reaction is it is the person saying it who is the insecure idiot.

Why does the idea of girls wearing kilts to school have you spluttering at how ludicrous it is, when thousands of girls all over the uk wear them to school every day

2 of our local schools have "kilts" as uniform - they're nothing like you describe though. They are polyester and basically an A line pleated skirt but in a tartan print. They're called kilts by the schools, parents hate them because they are £35 each and apparently a nightmare to wash because the pleats fall out. So, yes thanks, I do go outside, I do open my eyes.

People on here have been citing a traditional Scottish kilt when extolling how practical they are for men. A traditional Scottish kilt is not a polyester school skirt.

(Wonder what Scotsmen would think about being told they are wearing a skirt?)

Mine say "yes and what's your problem with that?"

One of the problems with doing away with uniform is that poorer children, or children whose parents won't buy them the latest fashions can feel shamed.

Just wanted to comment on this. My DD goes to a British no-uniform secondary school. It’s never been an issue in any way, my DD wears all sorts of clothes and nothing expensive, many are second-hand as are loads of the girls clothes too and I’ve not heard one instance of anyone being shamed or feeling that way. None of them are scruffy, they’re all very practical and wear both trousers and skirts.

I grew up in NZ where we generally don’t wear uniform at primary. Again never had an issue and we were quite poor for large parts- Mum was a single mum with 4 kids and infirm parent at one stage. I did not think about it and nobody I ever went to school with did either.

Why is their comfort and sense of safety important, but I have to choose between one or the other?

I have answered your question. Currently this is hypothetical. Boys have no option bar wearing trousers. So they are in the worse position. Shorts are not an option for them, nor are skirts.

If shorts ever become an option for boys then the discussion about a girls option will be relevant. But right now, boys are in the very position that you claim it is absolutely not fair for girls to be in.

Kilts aren’t skirts. Yes we care because it’s meant to take the piss. However - generally men do look good in a kilt

I do like a good looking man in a kilt....and this guy certainly thought he looked just fine ( taken in New Brighton last year)

People on here have been citing a traditional Scottish kilt when extolling how practical they are for men

I haven't. I was thinking of the kilt I wore as part of school uniform and the kilts worn by the girls at my son's school.

Oh and btw not all modern kilts for men are made in the way you describe or of the heavy duty tartan.

CharlieParley

(Wonder what Scotsmen would think about being told they are wearing a skirt?)

Mine say "yes and what's your problem with that?"

Mine would look terrible in a kilt- his big brother and frequent kilt wearer on the other hand would react exactly like that.

But that’s a myth surely? For a start, the money you don’t spend on a uniform can be used for decent but cheap clothing from places like Asda or Tesco etc. And as far as I can tell these days, the clothes are up with fashion and most kids are fine with primary clothing anyway, even teens and all those clothes are quite cheap. So why would the poorer children have nothing decent to wear? What do they wear on weekends?

Wealthier kids would be wearing labels, not stuff from Asda, though. Young people tend to be very tuned in to this sort of thing.

So in a hypothetical Scottish school where the boys could wear a kilt as part of their uniform, they would have a might have a choice of kilt or trousers.

The girls would only be allowed the trousers option as when worn by a girl the presence of a vagina renders the garment impractical.

I think that's where we've got to?

Wealthier kids would be wearing labels, not stuff from Asda, though. Young people tend to be very tuned in to this sort of thing.

That’s so not true. My DD goes to school with daughters of extremely rich parents, I’ve never seen labels or clothes that look any different to my child. They all sit around using those apps you buy used clothing from, tops for £8, stuff like that.

I must have missed your answer, Decomposing. What I've seen you say is:

1. Men and boys get too hot and sweaty in summer
2. Men and boys should have the option of cooler summer wear - eg shorts for schoolboys
3. Schoolboys should therefore have more uniform options to choose between - long legs and sleeves in winter, short in summer
4. Allowing all three options - trousers, shorts, skirts - for everyone doesn't work because boys won't choose to wear skirts so realistically they only have two options
5. It would not be equal or fair if boys only have two options but girls get three
6. Therefore girls should be permitted to choose between skirts or trousers but denied the option of shorts. Everyone gets the same number of choices thus Equality is achieved, job done.

By your logic, boys should have a short-legged summer option that accommodates both their physical and psychological comfort, but it would be unfair to the boys if the girls were universally granted this same possibility.

You have yet to explain to me why it is fair or equal that boys should have both needs accommodated at once, but girls expressly may not.

Please. I am all ears. Explain to me how your insistence on an equal number of options for both sexes is anything but a) sexist and b) oppressive to women and girls?

I'm also still waiting for the explanation of how it's fair and equal that my ability to absorb the education on offer must be hampered by the uniform requirements, but boys' must not.

Naturally! Skirt designs would take into consideration male and female bodies and shapes

So you'd have a rule saying that girls can wear short skirts but boys have to wear long skirts? Can you explain how you justify that then?

Nobody said anything about such a rule. You are twisting, turning and reinventing posts.

My Aunt created the most amazing garden from nothing. She rolled huge big rocks/boulders from the river bed nearby, to create a stone fence for her driveway... all of it wearing long nails and skirts. I never understood how she did it with those crazy nails of hers.

Please. I am all ears. Explain to me how your insistence on an equal number of options for both sexes is anything but a) sexist and b) oppressive to women and girls?

So currently girls have 2 options and boys have only 1. Therefore following your argument the current arrangement is sexist and oppressive to men and boys, correct? Therefore, let's sort out that imbalance and then once that's corrected we can look again at girls and women's choices, who, for the most part are quite well accommodated as it stands (apart from those who dont want to wear either of the options they currently have).

not to put to fine appoint on this (haven't read 25 pages so may be someone else might say this to) if you have v heavy periods are restricted as to frequency you are allowed to go to loo & you don't get on with all the alternative methods - you could be wearing 2 heavy duty pads = skirts hide this better & if looser are less likely to show anything

Why are trousers the male default??

To be honest, what is absurd is that girls were ever made to wear dresses and skirts in the first place for school when they're manifestly less comfortable, practical, warm and versatile than trousers. So I don't give a shit if a school has all of its pupils in trousers, and I have much more of a problem with schools that force girls into skirts and dresses.

@Tyrotoxicity when boys get periods I will agree with you about unfairness of extra choices

MargueritaBlue. Yes they did say that actually.

boys will need to wear longer length skirts plus appropriate underwear

Naturally! Skirt designs would take into consideration male and female bodies and shapes.

DecomposingComposers

You are taking the piss right? You cannot seriously think this ‘logic’ of yours makes any sense. So because some boys wouldn’t want to wear a skirt girls shouldn’t be allowed to choose shorts because then they would have too many options.. what the fuck?

So because some boys wouldn’t want to wear a skirt girls shouldn’t be allowed to choose shorts because then they would have too many options.. what the fuck?

I know right? It’s quite funny reading someone on a feminism board saying to give girls less choice because boys not wanting to wear skirts means girls should get less options too 😐 I mean...

Aaarrgghhh

Not taking the piss at all. And to be honest I doubt it would be some boys not wanting to wear a skirt. I think it would be most boys not wanting to wear a skirt just because they restrict what you can do and aren't comfortable or practical.

Clothing is one of the few areas where men and boys are treated unfairly and have many fewer options than girls and women. How can we, with a straight face, argue to put females in a better position than males whilst also arguing that is downright unfair and unequal for males to ever be in a better position than females?

JessicaWakefieldSV

So do you think the current situation is fine then? Girls have 2 options and boys have 1.

Do you agree with that?

If boys want to have the option of shorts, there's nothing to stop them campaigning for them in the same way that girls have had to campaign for the option of trousers or skirts.

If boys haven't bothered to make their case for a choice of garment then claiming they must have an equal number of choices else it's sexist is plain silly.

Girls have campaigned for a choice because of the specific requirements of different female bodies.

Is it unfair that girls get to wear a whole extra garment under their shirts? This equal number of choices notion makes about as much sense.