Five men know what a woman is

[FannyCann]

I have been ploughing through the Law Commission Consultation paper on surrogacy. (More coming soon on the thread I started about it). I nearly missed this little detail.
Oh yes. Only a woman can be a surrogate. Looks like those five men (The Law Commission (www.lawcom.gov.uk/about/who-we-are/) seem to know what a woman is after all, at least when it comes to harnessing her reproductive powers for the production of babies for other people. Trans women aren’t the sort of women who can have babies. Who knew?

They always know when they want to buy a baby. Funny that.

Everyone knows what a woman is.

I saw the trailer for the Seahorse film yesterday, the language in it is mind-boggling. The mental gymnastics the woman who gives birth goes through to pretend they aren't actually a woman giving birth is just painful. I can't believe we're all expected to go along with this delusion.

This is an excellent catch.

But what about a self identifying woman?
Can’t they identify into being a surrogate?

Can’t deny their validity surely

A surrogate. What about a mother? Can that role be only played by a woman?

Thanks that is an interesting line. The Law Commission seems to often use ‘gender’ (when they absolutely do mean biological sex) in a really ludicrous way.

That is because to most people gender and sex are synonymous. Most people aren't aware of how the left has split them. And why would you, after all the way gender is being used is complete, subjective, ideological nonsense.

Good point DrinkFeck
I have worked through 118 questions but not read the entire 502 pages, so I can't be sure but I think the word Mother is entirely absent from the whole document.

I'm now thinking I need to do a word search and add the word "mother" to every time I have referred to the surrogate in my answers.

So something that can exclusively be performed by women is best placed to be investigated and reported on by an all male group? They couldn’t find one woman to at least pretend there was balance? Impressive.

Didn't even consult with the RCM or RCOG. They consulted with the Ukraine though. I wonder why.

FannyCann thanks for posting that video. I was in floods of tears. That poor poor little girl. I can’t believe that they want to bring that over here. Of course many parents aren’t going to want a damaged baby so no doubt that will fall to an already stretched social services. And nobody’s going to want to adopt the kids in care when you could get a brand new shiny baby for about ten grand and not even have to travel abroad for it. I used to be on the fence about surrogacy but I have opened my eyes to what it actually is.

I used to be on the fence about surrogacy but I have opened my eyes to what it actually is.

I hand-on-heart think we should ban it outright. No one has the right to use someone else's body to try for a child.

Yeah that’s the only way I think. I think there’s a reason why it’s banned in most progressive democracies in Europe. Obviously the UK wants to move to be more like that bastion of human rights, the US, where some vain plastic woman can’t be arsed to lose pregnancy weight but wants to double the number of kids she already has for no good reason whatsoever, so hires someone else to do the dirty work for her.

There is no universal right to be a parent. It’s sad for those who are infertile but there are options like adoption and even intercountry adoption is way better than surrogacy. We need to stop fetishising parenthood. Having a child is not essential to having a meaningful life and a child is a person, not a lifestyle accessory. We also live on an overpopulated planet with a large number of already existing children who cannot find homes. Paying for the ‘perfect baby’ is just immoral. I have no words for those evil fucks in the video who abandoned their brain-damaged daughter in the Ukraine and have consigned her to a life of misery in a state-system that doesn’t give a shit about her. If they had even half a heart they would have taken her to the US and at least paid for treatment even if they weren’t able to look after her.

Does anyone know what happened to my Juno post it's been taken down??

I hand-on-heart think we should ban it outright

Yes, I can't even defend altruistic surrogacy anymore, it isn't fair on the child.

As for your Juno post, JazzyGG, mumsnet took it down to 'avoid deletions that's make the thread look like Swiss cheese' apparently.

@ArnoldWhatshisknickers oh I missed all the excitement then?! 🤷‍♀️

This gives a very male view and clearly grateful to their surrogate and have a good relationship but still the unease remains for me

www.twodaddies.co.uk/post/here-comes-the-son

Yeah thankfully that’s quite different to the Ukrainian refugees that are being exploited by carrying babies for rich people but we only ever see the success stories. What about if this woman contracted sepsis and died after the c-section, leaving her own kids motherless? What if she suffered complications that left her with permanent damage to her body and unable to work? There aren’t going to be that many altruistic women who just really want to help a couple that they already have a relationship with. But the demand for surrogacy means that they will need to find women from somewhere and I am quite worried about how that will happen.

Also, that woman has 4 kids of her own. Is she totally sure that they are all cool with her giving away what could have been a sibling? Maybe she thinks they are but who knows until later on how they really feel about it.

I mean if I had been say 5 and my mum was pregnant, I’m not sure I would have truly understood why I wasn’t getting a brother or sister, especially since I would be likely to have school-friends whose mums were also pregnant and they would be getting a sibling. I think the surrogate mums always say ‘oh yeah, my other kids totally get it and are so happy about it’ but I think that’s being way too simplistic and optimistic.

There's a very uncomfortable column in the Times detailing the attempts of a couple to use a surrogate in the USA. Of course it's all gone pear shaped and now they are looking at using the UK system and they've run out of money (and I suspect been ripped off). I have some sympathy for them as hers is a difficult journey health wise but the whole series is a classic example of some of the pitfalls of the USA system - and that's just for the 'purchasers' with little examination of the potential abuse of the birth mother.
Share token for a recent column :

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/surrogacy-and-me-we-have-some-heavy-decision-making-to-do-sc6c6vqrf?shareToken=4dca1829e777ddd448cf1dc83c59ed45

That sounds horrible. I feel sorry for Sophie, I really do. But I think that as a society we need to change our attitudes to infertility. It’s disappointing but it’s not the worst thing that can befall a person. Over 20% of women of Sophie’s generation will not go on to have children. Her life will not be wrecked or meaningless because of it and she does not have an unconditional right to become a parent just because that is what she wants. I know it sounds heartless but it becomes dangerous when we say that people can have what they desire no matter what the consequences. For one thing, having what you want will only be an option for the very privileged. Had Sophie been born on a different continent and in different circumstances, she may not even have survived her breast cancer, let alone had any options about becoming a parent. So it’s only a prospect for the rich and too often it means exploiting someone less privileged. I guess it’s good that at least she is recognising that her surrogate’s impending divorce makes it unsuitable but it sounds like she might still go for it.

NotTonight totally agree. I absolutely hate that sort of talk when people make out that you’re being selfish for not giving your parents grandchildren. Every child is a unique person, not a means for their parents to acquire some status that society tells them that they must have. It’s stuff like that that makes women like Sophie pay obscene amounts of money to greedy charlatans like her fertility doctor. She has been told from day 1 that her life won’t be worth living unless she has kids and that she has a duty to give her parents grandchildren. Fuck that shit. I think it’s getting a bit better but I have an older friend who has no kids and people used to tell her to her face that she was obviously selfish for not having kids. On what planet? Whereas spending thousands, hiring some poor woman who is desperate for cash to become pregnant, and potentially leaving the baby to rot if it doesn’t come out perfect like you ordered is obviously the very height of selflessness.

I’ve only had a quick google about but I haven’t come across any research findings, interviews or anything written by adult children born by surrogacy or adult children of surrogates, about what they think of surrogacy based on their experiences.

The political advocacy around this seems to be totally led by adults who were not born by surrogacy themselves.

I’d be delighted to be corrected on this of course.