Men and their planning/performance in close relationships

[SpamChaudFroid]

I'm a fairly damaged individual, and have attracted the kind of creeps men who like damaged women. Men who are physically and emotionally abusive. Reading I've done since suggests that during these terrifying physical displays of anger, they do not in fact feel angry or furious, it’s performed as a tool to control/train.

I'm ashamed to say that in my earlier DV relationships, I would hit back, but I would FEEL furious, not perform it. Angry like when you are a child and just overwhelmed by the unfairness of it all.

I was reading a thread this morning where the male partner was controlling what the poor woman wore, if she wore trousers why not a skirt and heels kind of thing, but perversely, if she wore heels, why not trousers. Obviously designed to keep her in a state of upside-down and I realised these abusive men must be always forward planning, never just being in the moment with their partner.

This made me think - I can honestly say I've never planned how I'm going to treat a partner, I just dealt with them honestly and directly, (well as much as you can in a DV relationship). Does this mean that the majority of men have a plan of how they are to treat a partner? And how much acting is required? (Acting anger, remorse for eg.) The times when I've appeared angry, I am and also feel completely out of control. I would not be able to decide to "hype myself up" to be violent towards somebody as many men can.

Also I wonder how much of this controlling behaviour is conscious or unconscious. Like a man saying to a woman he's just met that he's been violent to women in the past - is this a deliberate ploy to gauge his intended victim's response and weed out the women who are disgusted by this or is it unconscious?

If this level of self control is being used to mete out the anger effectively, then surely the entire emotional self is just as carefully controlled. Happiness and tenderness doled out in careful portions for rewards when the partner has behaved well, undermining or a backhander when not. Describing that process reminds me of training my dog, (without the backhander obvs!)which first made me laff, then made me sad.

Then I began wondering if it's it just abusive men that have a script and a plan that they follow, or do all men. We know men treat us differently to other men. I think I'm right when I say it's not even been a century since women were seen as chattels along with the livestock. And I'm aware I still have a tendency to centre men, in spite of knowing what I know. Sadly I was socialised into ladyhood, (not Womanhood) which did not serve me well - I responded to those violent and abusive men and their scripts exactly as they wanted me to. I guess I did learn to perform happiness.

I was going to post this in AIBU, but I'm not sure that's the right place for it. I feel a bit dumb to be posting in FWR though, I've only been aware of all this shit for the last year or so. So many people have been dismissive, or I've been told to "stop thinking" , "don't be angry". Just ignore and let me ramble away in the corner if you like

My ex is of the covert narc variety so nobody knew better than him. If he felt entitled to something, he must have it.I of course was not as clever or deserving as him, I was a lower form of being in other words. In this respect I think the dog analogy is pretty apt.

Did it come as a shock to you when you realised they didn't see you as a person? I've only just become aware, I was shocked to realise I had a horribly misogynistic way of thinking if I'm completely honest with myself. But I find people are quite misogynist in real life, and I can't understand how they can't see what I'm seeing.

A friend once had a boyfriend who planned their fights. He'd pick a time when he knew she was tired and then deliberately do something he knew would upset her. That way when she got cross, she also felt guilty because she knew she was overtired and felt she should have just brushed it off.
Then when she was feeling bad and apologised for 'overreacting', he'd use it to persuade her to do things she didn't want to.
She only found out because she was accidentally included in a long messenger chat in which he and a friend talked about what he was doing and laughing about it.
It was really specific too. Dates, places, actions, what he planned to get out of it.
e.g. 'X has a long shift Friday. Thinking she can come back to a sink full of dishes and no milk for tea. Pretty sure I can get her to lose it. BJ for me if I play my cards right lol
Like so many of these assholes, he came across as otherwise perfectly nice on the outside.

I feel a bit dumb to be posting in FWR though, I've only been aware of all this shit for the last year or so. So many people have been dismissive, or I've been told to "stop thinking" , "don't be angry". Just ignore and let me ramble away in the corner if you like
Not dumb. Not at all. This is what FWR is for. You'll find a lot of women here will have been in the same place you are and will have your back.
Good for you for recognising what's been happening and becoming aware of it. That's the first step on the road out. Being angry at how you were treated is also natural.
Have you tried the Freedom Programme? They're really good.

JustTurtles What a vile piece of filth of a man. I hope your friend dumped him with immediate effect.

Spam It took me years to fully realise how abusive our relationship had been. I binned him because I thought he was an arsehole, which of course he was, I just didn’t know that his particular brand of arseholery was abuse. I’d met him when I was 18. I was vulnerable, confused and had very low self esteem. He was much older and I think I liked the attention. It’s all a bit complicated because I knew from an early age that I didn’t like boys. My mum however had basically raised me to believe that all I could hope for in life was a nice husband, so with him I thought I’d fulfilled that requirement. It was a disastrous cocktail of ideas and beliefs and it landed me in the arms of a man who bashed me about and was only sorry if I was on my way out of the door; threatened me with a kitchen knife in front of our 5 year old DS; and would ignore me if I hurt myself, because if I’m making noise then I must be fine. That‘s the kind of arsewipe he is.

Does this mean that the majority of men have a plan of how they are to treat a partner?

I really don't think so, although some obviously do just like some women do.
There are some odd people out there. I have known some people refuse to allow themselves to fall in love with people, because then those people have power over them. Many of these have been women (probably because I know more women closely than I do men).

No, I don’t think most people do have a plan, but then most people don’t believe that their partner is lesser. We all have strategies, but they mainly revolve around conflict resolution, not partner control.

Having known a woman who is very much like this I don’t think its misogyny per se but the behaviour of a shitty person. The type of person who sees others as mere bit players to their life story.
You are well rid of them and I also second the Freedom Programme - it has turned life around for a dear friend who was in an abusive relationship.
Btw you describe yourself as fairly damaged but you come across really well, continue questioning and working your way out of your past. Be kind to yourself 💐

I was in an EA marriage for many years. If you asked me 2 years ago I would've said my husband was great. Despite him being porn addicted, lying to me ALL THE TIME and being controlling.

I still struggle with the idea he planned to control me. I agree with whatabout really. I think covert narcissism is very common and those men deeply believe they are better than and entitled to special treatment.

They dont care about lying if it gets them what they want. And they will hurt you because when your needs are different to theirs, in their world their needs are paramount. So there is no planning. They just do what suits them, in that moment.

A lot of the time what suits them is helping you because it makes them feel like the perfect husband/father and boosts their ego. But when your needs collide, watch out.

(I'm still struggling with how I feel about all this. Its really hard. I've thought about starting threads on the difference between intellectual knowledge and emotions a lot. So thanks for starting the thread)

There is a bit in "Why Does He DO That" that talks about men who almost always pick a fight just as we are going out the door to work.
Twice may be a coincidence. Three times is an abuse plan.

This:

Does this mean that the majority of men have a plan of how they are to treat a partner?

“I really don't think so, although some obviously do just like some women do.”

I saw an interview with a psychologist/ psychiatrist (can’t remember which is which, sorry). She said that whenever she had an abusive patient who said they “lost control” and their wife “ended up getting hurt” (always the passive voice) she’d ask them why they hadn’t done something worse. They’d always respond with shock that they’d never “do something like” that proving that they were in fact fully aware of and responsible for their actions.

It’s why it’s so dangerous for women to stay once men become physical - because they haven’t lost control, they’ve decided to start hurting us.

No, I don't think most people do this.

When you see it, I think it can be two things. In a few instances they do plan it, these people are not normal, they are sociopaths or something similar.
Some are not planning so much but just operate at that level all the time, it is like they constantly have a scam running or will always take any apparent opportunity to screw with someone. Like a terrible instinct. The people I know like this are mostly addicts and probably have personality disorders.

Another thing Bancroft discovered in his groups is that batterers do plan when to begin the physical abuse. The consensus among the batterers having the discussion was that it is best to wait two years before beginning the physical abuse because by then she is trapped and isolated and is unlikely to leave.

I'd say it's more of a man's trait to train their partner though. I don't think it's fair to say women do it to their male partners because historically men have controlled their female partners, not the other way around. Women are still the sex underclass, so not comparable in my mind.

Thanks for recommending The Freedom Programme, I'm working my way slowly through it, and that was where I first learned about how men feel calm and are in control of themselves while they abuse. This then led me on to all kinds of questions, some of which I don't yet know how to put into words. For some reason training my puppy triggered this last bout of questioning.

My ex sent me once a long ranty email when we broke up AGAIN,because i "fucked up" AGAIN. He actually admitted that he wanted to mould me , how disappointed he was that he couldn't. But ofc that wasn't his failure, it was that the material (me) was too damaged and not good enough. How he tried time and time again and it all just failed apart. Bla,bla,bla bullshit.

I can't believe the shit I put up with.

Mine used to start an argument whenever I went out for the evening. After a few times of sitting in the pub furious I pointed this out to him and he did stop.

Of course, I know now that I simply stopped one aspect of controlling behaviour, the basic lack of respect for my needs remained. Still, I did finish it in the end.

And I have mumsnet to thank for that - the people on the relationships board constantly pointing out what a good relationship should look like got through to me.

My ex-H told me that I was getting brainwashed by mumsnet and to stop reading the relationships board after I tried to use a thread on there to start a convo about some of his behaviours
Women talking is very threatening

I'd say it's more of a man's trait to train their partner though.

I thoroughly disagree, judging by the women I know and what I read online.
Although I don't think women police what their partners much at all.

deydododatdodontdeydo if that was the case then surely men would have set up shelters for themselves to flee to, when they needed to escape their controlling and abusive partners?

The consensus among the batterers having the discussion was that it is best to wait two years before beginning the physical abuse

Holy crap. That is advanced planning. So cold-blooded.

I think I'll download the Lundy Bancroft book referred to upthread. I have no plans to have relationships with men anymore, (I revert back to a man-pleasing wanker when cuntstruck) but I find this all helpful in understanding myself and why I was consistently drawn to abusive, violent men.

There is a pdf of the Book here

www.docdroid.net/py03/why-does-he-do-that.pdf

There are personality types who end up behaving abusively.

A lot of the abusive behaviour is learned in childhood through observation (eg in a dysfunctional family situation) or through experiencing bullying/controlling behaviour directly. Then it leads to the person learning how to get what they want by taking on this behaviour themselves, eg by intimidating or controlling other children who are smaller/weaker at school. A lot of these men were the "school bully/alpha male" who basically learned to be that way.

It's definitely a behavioral complex so works on an unconscious level, but ultimately the only person who the abusive male cares about is himself, and maintaining his internally imposed hierarchy with him at the top at all times, he needs to put others down to feel at the top, he needs to gain a sense of superiority at all times.

The easiest way to gain a sense of superiority is to bully your female partner into doing what you want, to gain reassurance that she feels inferior to you. It's obviously harder to do that with other men/acquaintances but they'll still give it a go.

Mumsnet is great for alerting women to "red flags" which indicate their partner has a particular personality type to avoid.

Some women attract these personality types because they basically have a weak sense of self, a lack of confidence, and this gives the abusive type all of the validation and supply he needs to feel on top.