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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transexual women face erasure - interesting thread

127 replies

pombear · 23/08/2019 00:27

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3667526-Transsexual-women-face-erasure

Given that so many posters said what an interesting and enlightening thread this ended up turning into, with some really key issues discussed and some strong points made by lots of posters (I particularly welcomed Barracker's refresh regarding the importance of language), it seems a shame if it drops down the list due to being full and people miss out on reading it (what with it being summer holidays and all).

OP posts:
GirlDownUnder · 23/08/2019 00:32

Thanks Pom there’s definitely some bits of that thread I need to re-read to fully ‘get’.

The deeper analysis of the what’s and why fors is really interesting.

2BthatUnnoticed · 23/08/2019 07:04

Yes it was a great thread - I learned a lot. Is my understanding correct that:

  1. Women exist as a sex class; and
  2. Women and girls need sex-based protections.
Bespin · 23/08/2019 07:09

I'm glad that other posters feel so strongly that Transexual women face erasure that they need another thread to support that.

an Idea would be just to have one thread on here thst just discussed trans stuff and then the forum might cover all the other things that effect woman worldwide.

Anyway do tell us more about how transsexual woman are facing erasure.

OhHimAgain · 23/08/2019 07:35

You really have no idea how you are coming across on these threads do you, Bespin.

There must be people out there shaking their heads at your contributions. You are doing your cause no favours at all!

zebrasdontwearbras · 23/08/2019 07:40

*2B8 just to expand, my take from it, was:

Women exist as a sex class, which can never include those born male.

Women & girls are being failed by refuges who are including male transexuals and transgender MTFs.

The vast majority of both transsexuals and transgender MTFs, and all those that are attracted to women, are autogynephiles.

The OP of that thread certainly fell into that category, and exhibited a deep-seated dislike of women.

Datun · 23/08/2019 07:48

I agree with all that zebrasdontwearbras.

And would add how it's a prime example of men demanding that women obey them, and if they don't, they will do their damnedest to shut them up.

And, a woman in trouble, in need, because of transactivism is merely another female who needs shutting down. Her predicament isn't just unacknowledged, it's actually completely invisible to those who reported her. The narcissism is extraordinary to behold.

GCAcademic · 23/08/2019 07:51

an Idea would be just to have one thread on here thst just discussed trans stuff and then the forum might cover all the other things that effect woman worldwide.

Oh dear, you really can’t stop telling women how to do feminism, can you? Perhaps you should go one up on your officious reporting tactics and report the entire feminist topic to MNHQ?

SophoclesTheFox · 23/08/2019 07:51

That was a great thread, with some fantastic thoughts and ideas on it, well worth bouncing.

What an extremely silly post, bespin, but you crack right on with whatever you think you’re achieving for the peanut gallery.

Grimbles · 23/08/2019 07:55

I just want to say a big thank you to Bespin for being the perfect example of the issues that women and girls are facing with the encroachment of TRA's.

OTT pronouncements like the original post in the previous thread can easily be dismissed as just someone trolling or being goady, but later comments really show the true TRA agenda.

Thank you Bespin Flowers

zebrasdontwearbras · 23/08/2019 07:59

Well, yes - women victims of domestic abuse are not allowed refuge now - unless they accept sharing space with males with penises who can just declare themselves female.

Never mind the safety issues inherent in this (we know that refuges had always been a strictly male free space, for the very good reason that men will attempt to find the women who are trying to escape them!) - but also we know that women and children will often be re-traumatised by the presence of male bodies and male voices in their safe spaces.

Daniel Muscato was (still is?) in a women's refuge. Danielle's behaviour in the past, as referenced in the responses to Danielle's tweet above, show why this would be threatening to women.

Women in refuge should not be forced to share space with people who tell women to "suck their dick."

OhHimAgain · 23/08/2019 08:13

an Idea would be just to have one thread on here thst just discussed trans stuff and then the forum might cover all the other things that effect woman worldwide

Another idea would be if women were just left alone to talk about whatever we like; to organise ourselves however we choose.

It's in these comments that you reveal yourself, Bespin.

GirlDownUnder · 23/08/2019 08:13

As per the OP re Barrackers post c&p here, also really helped clarify thoughts for me.

poster Barracker Wed 21-Aug-19 11:55:57
Sunk cost.
It's pointless, demonstrating with clarity as so many articulate women have done here, that there is no such thing as internal gender identity. That no one changes sex. That woman isn't a feeling, a goal, an aspiration, a performance. Trying to convince someone who has already stepped too far is futile. It's too late for them.

If a man already bought the lie, was vulnerable and suggestible and has already damaged his body irrevocably on a piecrust promise that this would make him a woman, a transwoman, a trans woman, a female, a transfemale, a femme?
It's too late.
Sunk cost.

He must convince himself that it was worth it. That some people agree with him, at least. The alternative is too awful. That he bought a lie, made a mistake, can't take it back, and now fewer and fewer people are pretending convincingly enough.

There are some men who've been through that process and arrived at that realisation.
But it must be much more tempting to cling to the façade.

To skate past the circular, magical nonsense of defending internal gender which 'if you don't feel it, it means it definitely matches your sex, only true believers have it revealed to them, like the holy spirit, but it's indescribable, inexplicable, without characteristics, and yet
definitely either matches your ovaries or your testicles'

I know we post for the lurkers.

But here's the thing I believe.
That piecrust promise is drawing more and more suggestible people into that snake oil world. And this is why I don't call men transwomen, or even trans, if I can help it.
Not because I'm harsh or abrasive.
But because I think it acts to lure an unending stream of vulnerable people towards an idea that hurts them.
Noone actually is trans. It's a misnomer.
We are all just our own sex, from birth to death and until we are dust.

I think every hint we give a vulnerable person that, ok, he might 'be trans', as if there literally is a state in which one's mind IS 'opposite', across from, one's sex, we are baiting a hook.
When we say, ok, I'll say you are a 'transwoman', we bait a hook.
We're saying, ok, I'll pretend ...this much... for you. I'll let you use a version of a female word which will validate your belief that you are sort of femaleish. I'll use that for you.
We're baiting a hook.
And people bite.
They cling onto that hope. Some sort of woman.

And it's enough, this baited hook that society validates to greater or lesser degrees that a person can 'transition', with words, with documents, with validation, with surgery, with hormones. The push might be dysphoria. But the pull is us. Any and all potential validation of any degree by society. Any degree.

That's why I tread as carefully as I can not to validate with carefully chosen language any aspect of a completely false belief.
Noone is trans. Noone is a transwoman.
These are misnomers we use, we who know noone changes from male to female, man to woman. We're using these words, although we know they're not right. But they're validation, a promise of pretence, that create a pull, a promised destination, where people will agree you've arrived.

If there was no pull, none at all, would so many transition? If you knew that all your efforts would change nothing, and you would be considered male, a man still by everyone, would you be as tempted? If absolutely no validation was forthcoming, no special words, no hints of prefix-womanness, or yes-you-transitioned, or your-special-trans-status? Would so many thousands be willing to put themselves through this only for society to truthfully say, but you're still exactly the same ordinary man you always were, only you've hurt yourself?

If the pull - from us - wasn't there any more, would as many people keep doing this to themselves?

I do not want to bait the hook.

2BthatUnnoticed · 23/08/2019 08:13

Agreed zebra. The thread also highlighted, for me, the importance of being aware of the following pattern (especially (4) below):

1. Potentially problematic behaviour occurs (e.g. masturbating in work loos / men in fetish gear interacting with children / gas-lighting).

2. Anyone who questions the behaviour is silenced (e.g. “bullying of our employees will not be tolerated!” / "Stop kink shaming!" / posts deleted).

3. If people continue to question the behaviour - they are characterised as bullying or "attacking."

4. They then respond by explaining that they are not bullying... they were trying to raise legitimate concerns.

5. The original problematic behaviour in (1) is quietly forgotten.

GirlDownUnder · 23/08/2019 08:15

I think I need to remember from the c&p this

Trying to convince someone who has already stepped too far is futile. It's too late for them.

For some people, we’re not going to change minds, so I should sow my seed in more fertile ground, and not waste my labour on those that cannot or will not listen.

EmpressLesbianInChair · 23/08/2019 08:23

I read it as: Up to now, men who define themselves as transsexual women have decided they have the right to use women’s toilets etc. They don’t care whether we object but if we do, it’s our problem.

Now the demands of the transgender rights activists have driven us to objecting, these men are angry because they think they’re different and special. Some of them claim to be on our side but to have reasons why they personally should still get to come in with us.

A few of them, like Hamster & Miranda, genuinely do seem to be on our side and are using the men’s spaces.

This post will get deleted in.... anyone want to take a bet?

SingingLily · 23/08/2019 08:33

5. The original problematic behaviour in (1) is quietly forgotten.

^This.

Treating the reaction as the problem, rather than the original behaviour that directly caused the reaction in the first place, is straight from the narcissist's handbook. It's depressingly familiar. And predictable.

GirlDownUnder · 23/08/2019 08:40

5. The original problematic behaviour in (1) is quietly forgotten.

While we rinse and repeat steps 2, 3, and 4.

We see it happen on threads all the time.

Datun · 23/08/2019 08:51

I hadn't made a particular note of what sorts of posts get targeted, just assumed it's as many as possible. But the idea that it's mostly about paedophilia and AGP has now sunk in and worth taking note of.

Ali1cedowntherabbithole · 23/08/2019 08:51

The thread shone a very strong light on entitled male behaviour.

You could see in in every wriggle to avoid answering a discussion point and feel it in every footstamp to get attention.

Chrystal clear.

Datun · 23/08/2019 08:52

Bespin, did you answer the question as to whether it was you who reported Detroit, by the way? I can't remember.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 23/08/2019 09:01

It's always my take home that when you ask a male who is absolutely certain that they are a woman to explain the basis of that belief, they simply do not answer

My interpretation is that they know the answer will get them into big trouble on a feminist forum, because it will be some sexist piddle about being kind, not being assertive, being nurturing, and probably being sexually submissive

lady brain is inherently sexist. genderism is inherently sexist

and every time a genderist talks about their beliefs they prove it. they can't do otherwise

Datun · 23/08/2019 09:05

and every time a genderist talks about their beliefs they prove it. they can't do otherwise

And, as I mentioned on the other thread, the family background is always a highly gendered environment. I've yet to meet a transwoman who didn't have an issue with their dad trying to enforce gender norms.

2BthatUnnoticed · 23/08/2019 10:11

Does someone (not us - not our job) need to reduce the stigma of agp? There are some open on Twitter about having it, who say they receive DMs from others struggling with the shame, but publicly other TW attack them.

Like, why not just say that agp is a thing and it’s okay [as long as you don’t hurt anyone or hide it from potential partners]. Some mean get turned on by imagining themselves as women... so what?

You can even “live as a women” if it’s more comfortable to.

But it doesn’t mean you are a woman. It doesn’t mean you belong in all women’s spaces.

“Some people are A g p. Get over it.” Catchy, no?

I can see how emerging as a “stunning and brave” TW at 40 is more appealing than continuing to struggle in secret.

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 23/08/2019 10:17

I'm not sure I want the stigma of sexual fetishes to be reduced.

I'd rather see research into why some men are AGP and how to prevent that sexual fetish emerging.

I suspect it is linked to growing up in a highly sexist and homophobic environment but proper research is needed, not my hunches.

Wurzelsnewhead · 23/08/2019 10:24

Acceptance without exception.

It seems transsexuals need to accept the AGP trans people in their ranks. This insistence on a division between transsexuals and transvestites seems like splitting hairs. They are all mtf transitioners so their commonality is greater than their differences.

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