Any sports where women have advantage over men? ... Any??

[WomanBornNotWorn]

Thinking about the repeated instances of biological men self identifying into women's teams and competitions, and how the simple fact that their being physically and socialised male gives them an unfair advantage. I think we're all on the same page here.

Does anyone have any links where trans men have competed against or in teams with men? (I've read about Patricio www.theguardian.com/society/2018/dec/21/patricio-manuel-trans-boxer-made-history )

I understand equestrian sports are mixed, and of course mixed doubles have always been a thing, say in tennis.

There are some moves I've seen in women's gymnastics I can't imagine a trans woman being able to achieve safely and without pain.

But I'm truly trying to think of any sports where being really female gives an unfair advantage over men.

@BikeRunSki Jasmine Paris is amazing (although personally I think her Bob Graham and Ramsay Round times are even more impressive than her Spine Race win). She didn't breastfeed during the Spine Race though. She expressed milk at the checkpoints to avoid mastitis and didn't see her daughter during the race.

Ashima Shiraishi

At 13 she was the youngest person to ever climb 9a/9a+ (which is just ridiculously hard).

She's 18 now, it will be interesting to see what she can do now, or once the Olympics are out of the way.

@dapoxen, ok thanks, I misunderstood.

Gymnastics. Women are much bendier and more graceful on the floor and the beam. What they lack in force, they make up for in supple agility.

www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-49284389

^
Are women better ultra-endurance athletes than men?

Someone mentioned skating upthread, and it's interesting to check out which jumps are done by which sex, the date at which quadruples were first jumped and so on:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_skating_jumps#History_of_first_jumps

I looked this up on a previous thread - someone who was keen on skating mentioned that it's not just doing a single really difficult jump, that male skaters will typically do whole sequences of jumps with maybe two or even three quadruples in, where the best female skater in the world will manage one quadruple in a whole routine.

Possibly mine — dancesport, especially sequence dancing.

But I think that's because judges don't generally like the look of male/male couples (they can look very tall and 'limb-y'!).

You have "all girls" categories from the youngest age groups, so there are some very very good female/female couples. Male/male is much more unusual, and I think some people feel it's cheating if they dance in a same-sex category because they're obviously stronger and move more.

So currently there is, but it's only because the marking is subjective. It would depend entirely on who was judging.

SCUBA diving isn’t a sport, but women often have better buoyancy control, and they certainly use their air more efficiently so have more bottom time.

Hmm. Synchronised swimming?!

I’d say none sorry. There are sports where women are the most prevalent but that’s usually those which men mostly don’t bother with such as rthymic gymnastics, synchronised swimming etc as cited. At the very least they could compete equally but would probably exceed them (larger lung capacity for eg would be an advantage in the latter).

There are some however where they shouldn’t have an advantage to speak of and be equal such as equestrian mentioned, shooting etc.

I find it odd that women have a separate chess competition for example. Well the men’s isn’t strictly men’s but ‘open’ but only women feel the need to have a single sex one. Same as darts? I exclude snooker as men have a longer reach in general even though some short arses are elite.

Sorry for being sexist but can’t think of a single sport where women would have an advantage if they both sexes had a similar level of interest in them

Can only think of some where it shouldn’t necessarily mean men are advantaged. I’d include some motorsports but not Formula 1 and the top motorbiking formulas as there is a significant element of physicality to them

Simone Biles is arguably one of the most lauded gymnasts ever but people are going nuts about her doing the ‘triple double’. The first ever in history. Except loads and loads of male gymnasts who’ve being doing it for ages

I find it odd that women have a separate chess competition for example. Well the men’s isn’t strictly men’s but ‘open’ but only women feel the need to have a single sex one. Same as darts?

I would say so, far fewer girls get into chess it seems, so there just isn't the same talent pool. There are some people who feel men overall are more likely to think in the way chess demands or perhaps an interest interest in that sort of game. Either way, in most chess clubs for kids there are more boys by a fair few.

I do think long distance swimming women is probably the one clear sport where women have an actual advantage, mainly because of higher body fat and distribution and different metabolism.

This thread about the Biles tripe double achievement is wonderful. Well worth a read.
twitter.com/sf_boswell/status/1160958697243336705?s=21

Can only assume men's strength and explosive power is the reason they are able to pull off those moves. Even then only a couple of them can, or have done. As per thread above that only makes SB's ability all the more impressive.

Sorry not meaning to diss women’s sports. I’m not saying they’re inferior but that mainly men have a physical advantage so shouldn’t be competing against each other. I’m aghast at the trans thing. There was a fashion at one point for some feminist to women outlandish claims about how they can ‘beat the men’. That John McEnroe is sexist saying the top 200 man could beat Serena (think he said 400 but was obviously just picking a number out and might have been slightly harsh). The point was the elite women couldn’t compete with their male equivalents - and shouldn’t be expected to be able.

In games of skill the suppositions can become contentious in terms of the level of difference but when there is hard data and records such as in athletics or other timed events, weightlifting etc it is relatively easy to quantify

I mainly lurk here, but

Fencing and in particular epee. Women can absolutely dominate

^ This

I use to compete in fencing up to national level and could of gone further (maybe) but certainly locally, I didn;t have a choice but to fence against men and 9/10 I could beat them, epee and sabre as the hit area was open to the whole body, but with foil it was limited

I believe Biles maybe the GOAT as most do taking into account both sexes natural physicality. I won’t say such or such man 10th in the world is greater because he can do x and she cant. However if she was to self identify as man and enter the male competition she couldn’t win as wouldn’t score close to the same level of difficulty points even if she could compete or do better on the artistry

That John McEnroe is sexist saying the top 200 man could beat Serena (think he said 400 but was obviously just picking a number out and might have been slightly harsh). The point was the elite women couldn’t compete with their male equivalents - and shouldn’t be expected to be able.

I think this is interesting because in my memory, for a long time saying this sort of thing or acknowledging it was considered sexist. Whether about sports or other very physical work like the military.

I know a lot of younger women in particular believed it, and maybe younger men too. But when I look now at people being asked to maintain these "truths" which are clearly actually false, I wonder if there isn't a connection. Perhaps not even in that people stopped realising what the differences between the sexes are, but people became used to maintaining belief in things that clearly were not actually true.

I think this is interesting because in my memory, for a long time saying this sort of thing or acknowledging it was considered sexist. Whether about sports or other very physical work like the military.

This was muddled thinking - not distinguishing between women as a class, statistically, and individuals.

When it comes to the military and other physical occupations, there will be some women who can perform to the required standards. But a significantly smaller proportion than in the male population.
There might be an occasional outlier woman who could compete in sports (in general, not the types under discussion) - but that's against the very best males, rather than 'good enough'.

Sorry not meaning to diss women’s sports. I’m not saying they’re inferior but that mainly men have a physical advantage so shouldn’t be competing against each other.

That's ok, I think most women here agree with you.
And we know we're not inferior, we're different. There's one physical endurance activity men are absolutely rubbish at.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/08/pregnancy-endurance-test-human

Paper:
advances.sciencemag.org/content/5/6/eaaw0341

Earlier on someone mentioned long distance swimming. Males still have an advantage on speed and under similar conditions. (You can rarely compare two English Channel crossings because conditions change each hour and therefore different times expected.) When racing at an elite level in long distance open water swimming, men are way faster than women. In last year's open water championships in the 10k - 56 men beat the top woman and the top male beat the top female by almost 8 minutes. In the 25k, the top male beat the top female by 16 minutes and 57 seconds. 18 men beat the top woman and only 22 men did the actual race. The last woman (place 16 in the world championships so extreme elite level) was one hour and 8 minutes behind the #1 male finisher.

Some women might be able to slog through colder water due to fat reserves or endure longer swims but speed and racing will always have a male advantage.

I think this is interesting because in my memory, for a long time saying this sort of thing or acknowledging it was considered sexist. Whether about sports or other very physical work like the military.

I think it is worth looking at the popular culture people not very much younger than me have grown up in to understand why they might think that.

Over the last few decades we've had a steady stream of films and TV shows depicting 'kick ass' women who are not only intellectually equal to men (which we are) but physically so (which we're not). Women are frequently shown winning fights against men on our screens. That just isn't reality.

If you aren't actually very interested in or knowledgeable about sport then it is easy to extrapolate wrongly from the fictional images you are bombarded with onto the real world.

As for John McEnroe, I always thought he was being generous in his comments.

It's often said women are better at endurance events, so although I was mightily impressed by Sharon Gayter's efforts (www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49212792), I was surprised to see the men's records were still more than three days faster.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49212792
Hope link works now.