**Solution** 'CIS' women and transwoman form a class together

[2BthatUnnoticed]

By ‘cis’ I mean only women who ID as ‘cis’ (CW). This is only a small proportion of the world’s 3.8 billion women, but politically very influential.

Most women want some sex-based protections, and access to certain sex-segregated spaces when in need – refuges, shelters, rape crisis centres, prison.

Some women, usually 'CW,' do not – they support removing sex-based protections for gender-based ones. [Many CW believe "TWAW" (regardless of transition) and that any risk of predators assuming a trans ID to access women’s spaces is minimal.]

To solve this fairly for all – why don’t CW form a class with trans women (TW)? Leaving women who want single-sex spaces to do so?

(Eg 1) In Vancouver, 2/3 rape crisis centres admit TW. TRAs are trying to get the one female-only one (VRR) closed (incidentally I've worked in a shelter - there are genuine reasons for single sex). Instead, why not have a 4th centre specifically for CW/TW - and respect the female-only centre as is.

(Eg 2) Youth hostels could have (1) male dorms, (2) female dorms and (3) CW/TW dorms. This would respect everyone and keep everyone happy:

• CW would be with TW as they wish – with gender ID in common.
• TW would be amongst those who believe TWAW - gender affirming.
• Women who want and need a female only space would have it.

I think there would be high profile people happy to champion the TW/CW cause (eg Sally Hines, Mhairi Black, Munroe Bergdof, Danielle Muscato).

What do you think?

Are there CW/TW posters about - would you support this?

Most “women’s” Refuges currently admit TW. They will lose their funding if they don’t. This policy is causing harm. Do you support it being changed as proposed?

Post edited by MNHQ at OP's request

vast majority of women really couldn’t care less about TW, don’t often come across them, and aren’t that exercised about which toilets or prisons they use.

I would agree on the whole. But it doesn’t make them right.

What toilets or prisons TW use is of supreme indifference if on a personal level you’ve never experienced an issue in the first or been incarcerated in the second.

I can see beyond ‘me’ and I’m not unique which is why I guess we’re having this conversation.

It’s another version of the ‘third space’ we would all be happy with - except the majority of tw. However their numbers are way smaller than ours. If MPs etc started to campaign for third spaces then we might have a chance of retaining single sex areas. At the moment that doesn’t seem likely but with people like Yaniv about there is any increased awareness of the problems that self id brings

But in reality I think the vast majority of women really couldn’t care less about TW, don’t often come across them, and aren’t that exercised about which toilets or prisons they use.

Don't be silly. All the women assaulted by transwomen in prison certainly care. The women who are having to forego a rape refuge certainly care. The women who are being pushed out in sport certainly care. The women who do not get to be on the all women shortlists, certainly care.

You don't care about these women. It's you who doesn't care.

I don’t think the public ‘don’t care about the safety of women in shelters’ or that they’re not important. I just don’t think the TW issues are of a scale and a major threat as is being portrayed here. We’re all free to agree/ disagree. (Without being accused of ‘community disruptors’ preferably).

Field I’m glad it is not a problem for women you know.

However, it is for women in Refuge, shelters, rehab, rape counselling and prison.

This approach would help those women, while ensuring all clients, including TW, have their needs met in a supportive environment.

On your reasoning, we should expect good support from both TW and CW, would you agree?

What do you mean by scale? Men beating women in sport? How many women is acceptable?

The four women assaulted by Karen White? How many women is acceptable?

The 16 women being sued by Jonathan Yaniv. How many is acceptable?

The minors he tried to groom online? How many of those are acceptable?

Where is your cut off? And how do you arrive at it?

It's such flawed logic, field, and telegraphs your misogyny to all four corners of the Earth.

If there are so few, they can go in with the men. Hardly anyone is going to care, right? A handful of men. What's the big deal? It's a non-issue. Maintain sex segregation, and let those few men get other men to accept them.

Field.
In reality, the majority of the public (both women and men) have no idea what a transwoman is, if asked they would probably say the term describes a biological woman and have no clue about self id. I expect the majority of people still refer to mtf people as transvestites and think of them as the old school variety.
Not many women would be comfortable sharing single sex spaces with biological males ( same goes for most men) look at the public reaction we had to mixed wards.
The men I have chatted with about this say any decent man would not want/ demand to access single sex spaces reserved for women. They are disgusted by what is happening.

Field

“Without being accused of ‘community disruptors’ preferably”

What?

What toilets or prisons TW use is of supreme indifference if on a personal level you’ve never experienced an issue in the first or been incarcerated in the second.

I can see beyond ‘me’ and I’m not unique which is why I guess we’re having this conversation.

Yup. I can see that, where I've been abused by males, other women will have experienced same, and where I haven't it's just that I've been lucky so far.

• Two boys sexually assaulted me at primary school: other women will have been through same.
• I've never yet been molested by a male medical professional: so far, I am lucky, other women have been through that and will want a female HCP for their care.

I defend the rights needed by the women who are less lucky than me, as well as fighting for the rights I would like to have respected for myself.

Women in shelters (and children) are afraid when they perceive someone as not female.

For many a female-only space is best, particularly where children have been abused by a man.

It is not personal. It does not invalidate you. Those women and children do not hate you.

A shelter dedicated to TW-CW can be tailored to their needs and link into other service providers.

bd67th

I’m sure these TW are all lovely people. I’d use their female names and “she/her” and probably get on fine!

But many women would feel uncomfortable in a shared showering and sleeping space. It’s not personal. It’s not bigoted. It’s about survival.

(And yes it’s awkward enough sharing with each other - some women struggle just with that. But women commit only around 1% of sex offences and 10% of violent crimes - there’s good reason to feel safer!)

I think people imagine TW to all look like Munroe B or Caityn J, and think “sure I could handle sharing intimate space.”

But in some jurisdictions you can get “F” on your documents without modifying a thing.

Back when I was properly “woke” and identified as “cis” I used Unisex spaces for this reason. I felt it was the right space for women who didn’t mind sharing with males, trans women and trans men.

I don’t think trans allies or trans women will agree to this however - they will use a racist analogy to reject “separate but equal” etc.

Caitlin Jenner is what most people think.

Not Karen White.

By the way, I don’t think people should have to “modify a thing” about their bodies. Everyone, trans or otherwise, is fine as they are.

But someone of this general appearance will scare the be-jeezuz out of other service users and people do leave sometimes.

Hence a dedicated CW/TW facility would help all parties.

I wish we lived in a world where bad things never happen at all.
Most TW in prisons aren’t in with women. Most women in prisons are assaulted by other women not TW.

Agree with you about sports, I think the tide might turn with that one.

Most TW in prisons aren’t in with women.

Well that might be because it went from 120 to nearly 2000 in about half an hour 🤣

Most women in prisons are assaulted by other women not TW.

Women as a cohort don't tend to assault anyone.

Women as a cohort no. But women as a cohort in prison, yes they do. Assault levels in female prisons has always been quite high. Higher than in men’s prisons according to most available research.

🙄

Survey finds assaults by women in a confined space that contains only women?

Dear lord, hear, take the bottom of this barrel and scrape it for all you're worth.

here

Before self ID wasn't this the situation anyway - very occasionally you'd have a 'genuine' trans person accessing female spaces. The exception I would make is for crisis centres etc where it made other occupants uncomfortable.

None of us can consent on behalf of other women, and it's unfair to ask women to explicitly object if they are not comfortable with mixed-sex facilities. Look at the YHA transgender guest equality policy. Men can self-identify into the female dormitory, but any woman who objects has to disclose sexual trauma or similar and notify YHA two weeks in advance if she wants guarantees that she can stay in a female-only space.
And workplaces. Imagine returning from maternity leave to find that a male colleague has 'transitioned' and is using women's loos and changing rooms because apparently everyone was ok with it. What if you don't want him there, for whatever reason?

Assault levels in female prisons has always been quite high. Higher than in men’s prisons according to most available research.

I would imagine that’s because prison authorities take male on male assault more seriously so there are more safeguards in place. Authorities likely are having a laugh over fights between female inmates. “Haha cat fight oh, well I guess we should break it up...”. Etc

Anyway, obviously there are statistically few TW in prison and it’s hard to get exact stats due to privacy concerns. I suspect the problem would be much worse once self ID is in place given some estimates are that fully 20% of “female” inmates would be TW (because of course he male prison population dwarfs the female one).

Are you actually capable of disagreeing with someone without resorting to insults?

There is a higher rate of assaults in female prisons than male. There are very few TW in women’s prisons. We were talking about the scale of problems of TW in women’s prisons. The safety of all women matters, I didn’t say it doesn’t.

I’ve had enough of this for today.