‘Gay Cake’ case now going back to court

[FeminismandWomensFights]

This case is an important one to watch for those interested legal protections for personal freedom of belief. It is now going back to court.
Gist seems to be that the complainant tried to order a cake with a message on it saying ‘support gay marriage’ from a baker who doesn’t support gay marriage. Bakery says no to that specific order.
Complainant feels it’s about discrimination because he couldn’t make that supplier supply him with that specific message on a cake. Baker says that any different message on a cake would’ve been completely fine to provide to him, it’s not personal discrimination, it’s about people having a right not to endorse political statements that they don’t believe in. (Possibly making arguments about religious freedom of expression too, but I haven’t read into the details). It‘s easy to see how this case could relate to GC people’s rights, at work and so on.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-49350891

It was only recently you were all moaning about a pub that refused to serve the GC protestors who were wearing their AHF tops and how awful you all thought this was.

The baker served the cake.
The bar should have served the beers.

The bar didn’t have to like the T-shirt’s to serve the beers.

GC protesters is immaterial
The cake buyer is immaterial

The cake got served
The beer did not

As a business owner (not a bakery, a totally different industry) I reserve the right to refuse a customer who wishes to promote anti gay, anti atheist, anti "my" values etc

Due to this I believe others have the right to reserve the right to refuse a customer who is wishes to promote another belief they fundamentally disagree with.

Freedom of speech is freedom of speech - I have the right to think people are total and utter bigots due to their beliefs but if I think I have the right to disagree with them, how can I say they cant agree to their own?

We cannot have it both ways, if someone wanted me to mention something anti semitic or anti atheist in my work I would say no.

If someone else didn't want to mention something opposed to Christianity in their work I would say that in order retain equality they should be equally allowed to say no as I am.

European Convention on Human Rights

ARTICLE 9

Freedom of thought, conscience and religion

1. Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience

and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.

1. Freedom to manifest one’s religion or beliefs shall be

subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Convention_ENG.pdf

They baked the bloody cake ffs
The bar should have served the beer ffs

What the key is FOR THE MILLIONETH TIME is that the cake makers shouldn't have to write on the cake a statement they disagree with, like the publicians don't have to say "women don't have penises" as they hand over the pint.

People are too caught up in the religious aspect to join the dots

No it’s not that. I think they are happy for the law to discriminate against people with religious views because they personally don’t have any.

They only support freedom of speech and belief for people like them.

But yes, you are right that they are too thick to see that it would affect moral or political beliefs as well.

It was only recently you were all moaning about a pub that refused to serve the GC protestors who were wearing their AHF tops and how awful you all thought this was.

And an equivalent analogy would be if the women wanting to be served drinks had insisted that the bartender put on one of their AHF t-shirts.

Mr Lee was not denied a service. He was provided with an iced cake and the means to add a slogan of his choice.

It's genuinely worrying that people can't see the distinction!

I have seen a few people refer to it as a 'local bakery' and imply that it is some small independent shop. It is part of a chain that has multiple locations throughout Scotland and Northern Ireland and supply dough and goods for multiple stores and restaurants. It is not some little mom and pop bakery or someone baking in their kitchen,

Also, people are talking about the rights of the bakers but seem to be ignoring the fact that gay marriage is not legal in Northern Ireland. But yeah, poor Christians being penalised for not icing a cake. Gay people in Northern Ireland are not allowed to get married to each other, and this case has much bigger significance in that respect.

Northern Irish politics are complicated and volatile, so maybe stop using us as a tool when you don't give us the time any other day of the year? Thanks.

This case has nothing to do with gay marriage. It’s about compelled speech.

Imagine you were an artist @FlowerCupcake. Would you accept a commission for a piece of art with the words “ Fornicators will burn in Hell “?

If not, why not ?

@Flowercupcake, this isnt Gays vs Christian's, this is about a law forcing people to endorse views they find deeply objectionable. This law will apply to everyone, not just Christians.

The design for the cake says 'support gay marriage' so... kinda seems like it might be about gay marriage, but that is just a wild hunch

But the baker does not approve of gay marriage. Not everybody does, and you can't make them!

Northern Irish politics are complicated and volatile, so maybe stop using us as a tool when you don't give us the time any other day of the year?

That's interesting. Further upthread [pg 7], it was written :

"In a statement, Mr Lee's solicitor said the latest legal bid "does not directly implicate the owners of Ashers bakery or challenge their right to privately hold religious/political views.

"Instead the case will be against the United Kingdom, a member state of the European Court," the statement read."

So, if the legal issue of same-sex marriage is a devolved issue how can the case be against the UK? Confused now.

The design for the cake says 'support gay marriage' so... kinda seems like it might be about gay marriage, but that is just a wild hunch

Which the bakers are entitled not to agree with. Whether we consider their views to be acceptable or not is an entirely different issue to whether an individual should be forced to say something with which they disagree. It's been explained plenty of times very clearly on this thread.

Oh god, again with the people not being able to see the unintended consequences.

This is not just about a cake or gay marriage. It is a test case which will establish a precedent in law for whether people can be forced to articulate beliefs they do not share. We are moving beyond not being able to discriminate against people, towards potentially not being able to reject ideas and ideologies that we personally do not believe to be true or right.

I do not think Ashers in Scotland is connected!

Northern Irish politics are complicated and volatile, so maybe stop using us as a tool when you don't give us the time any other day of the year?

You're pissed off but don't be daft. Everyones saying how crap it is that gay marriage isn't legal there. They're also saying that this is a massively important case regarding freedom of thought/belief/speech. Start your own thread on what you're passionate about instead of getting mardy about this one.

The latest hearings will attempt to challenge that ruling at the highest human rights court in Europe, citing the Supreme Court failed to give appropriate weight to Mr Lee's rights under the European Convention of Human Rights.

Essentially he is saying that his rights are greater than the rights of everybody else. And he wants the ECHR to agree with him.

Entitled? Much?

The design for the cake says 'support gay marriage' so... kinda seems like it might be about gay marriage, but that is just a wild hunch

So given that gay marriage is, as you say still not available in NI, if there were a campaign to maintain the status quo would you be happy to be forced to make a cake expressing the opinion that the idea of gay marriage is sinful?

@FlowerCupcake

As I'm Scottish and have never heard of an Ashers Bakery here I've had a bit of a google and as far as I can tell Ashers Baking Company has 9 outlets in Northern Ireland, and is the company concerned.

www.ashersbakingco.com/

Then there is Ashers Bakery Limited in Nairn, Scotland who seem to be a different, and much older, company.

ashers.co.uk/

So, while not a single independent store, the company in question are not a large chain with stores across Northern Ireland and Scotland, but a small to middling business that appear to operate only in Northern Ireland.

@GCAcademic is 100% spot on!!

Oh god, again with the people not being able to see the unintended consequences. This is not just about a cake or gay marriage. It is a test case which will establish a precedent in law for whether people can be forced to articulate beliefs they do not share. We are moving beyond not being able to discriminate against people, towards potentially not being able to reject ideas and ideologies that we personally do not believe to be true or right.

My high street bakers supply bread to local shops and businesses, it is what(the few remaining) small bakers often do.

Slight derail but here is a great cake.
Baker not boycotted as far as I know.

This is what happens when words = literal violence. First the words become wrongspeak and are banned. The next shift will be the use of physical force as a legitimate response to words you don’t like.

towards potentially not being able to reject ideas and ideologies that we personally do not believe to be true or right.

Worse than that: to be forced by law to speak and perform lipservice obediently to political ideas and ideologies we personally do not believe to be true or right.

It doesn't get much scarier.

Particularly as it's becoming normal apparently for some to believe that human and civil rights should be only for people you personally agree with, and that this is somehow ok. Despite it being a belief held by the slave traders of the American South, the people who drove Native Americans on to reservations, who deported kids to Canada and Australia, and some big event that happened in Europe in the 1940s.

I couldn't see Fanny's cake but here's one I would eat all in one sitting like.