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‘Gay Cake’ case now going back to court

258 replies

FeminismandWomensFights · 15/08/2019 08:44

This case is an important one to watch for those interested legal protections for personal freedom of belief. It is now going back to court.
Gist seems to be that the complainant tried to order a cake with a message on it saying ‘support gay marriage’ from a baker who doesn’t support gay marriage. Bakery says no to that specific order.
Complainant feels it’s about discrimination because he couldn’t make that supplier supply him with that specific message on a cake. Baker says that any different message on a cake would’ve been completely fine to provide to him, it’s not personal discrimination, it’s about people having a right not to endorse political statements that they don’t believe in. (Possibly making arguments about religious freedom of expression too, but I haven’t read into the details). It‘s easy to see how this case could relate to GC people’s rights, at work and so on.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-49350891

OP posts:
CassianAndor · 15/08/2019 10:33

Minnie again - the bakers do not refuse to serve anyone. They made the man his cake.

Propertyofhood · 15/08/2019 10:34

If you're allowed to refuse to serve a gay person based on what you read in the Bible then we may as well allow a racist to refuse to serve a black person because he believes what he read in The Turner Diaries.

They. Didn't. Refuse. To. Serve. The. Gay. Customer.

IStillMissBlockbuster · 15/08/2019 10:39

While I disagree with the bakers' views about marriage, I would not wish to be forced to provide propaganda for extremists either. As Datun says above, this is a slippery slope because it applies equally to "children are so sexy, rape fantasies gives me orgasms, Hitler was right, etc" - compelled speech laws are for this reason, undemocratic.

Again, they did not refuse a service to the customer. They refused to write a political slogan that they disagreed with. That's the issue here.

Cheeseandwin5 · 15/08/2019 10:40

This is a difficult issue, and there are strong arguments on both sides but if I think if I was a hairdresser and I cut white peoples hair but refused to cut Indian peoples hair would that be discrimination? I think so, so if I was a baker and I would be willing to make a cake that says support marriage, but not willing to include the word gay would that be discrimination? I do feel if you are in the service industry, than you have to put aside your personal bias and serve each customer the same. Homophobia is still a disease that needs to be fought but is sadly becoming more aggressive.
If the bakers were happy to put 'Men are Great' but unwilling to put 'Women are great' because it went against their personal beliefs I would be deeply offended.

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 15/08/2019 10:43

The baker was serving each customer the same.

They would have refused to write the slogan regardless of who asked for it.

CassianAndor · 15/08/2019 10:44

god, the number of people completely failing to understand the point of this case is depressing.

Cheeseandwin5 · 15/08/2019 10:45

Also I would say I am not sure about slippery slope metaphor. Society decides whats offensive and what isn't, I don't think we are talking about writing whatever you like but if it isn't offensive or illegal than I am not sure we should allow personal prejudice to govern.

GirlDownUnder · 15/08/2019 10:45

refuse a customer because of religious beliefs

This case might be because of religious beliefs which for you are a “complete work of fiction” (and how lucky that you are actually free to state that), but not all personal beliefs are religious, or even universal.

I don’t believe TWAW so should I be compelled to chant or ice or sew or stitch or print that yes TWAW?

If you believe TWAW should you be compelled to chant or ice or sew or or stitch or print that TWAM?

What about pro-choice v pro-life? Both are legal and valid points of view.

What about a whole lot of other things, including “religion is a complete work of fiction”

ScrimshawTheSecond · 15/08/2019 10:46

Cheese, if you were a hairdresser and someone asked you to shave a swastika into their hair, should you be forced to do that? The principle is exactly the same, no matter what the 'slogan' or message is.

It's not about offence, solely, it's about freedom of thought and speech. Very important principles, no matter which 'side' one is arguing on.

Cheeseandwin5 · 15/08/2019 10:47

@ Arnold

Would they have refused to write ' Support Marriage'??

Datun · 15/08/2019 10:48

I think so, so if I was a baker and I would be willing to make a cake that says support marriage, but not willing to include the word gay would that be discrimination? I do feel if you are in the service industry, than you have to put aside your personal bias and serve each customer the same.

If a straight person had asked them to write a cake with support gay marriage on it, they would have refused. Therefore they are treating a gay person and a straight person in exactly the same way.

There is no discrimination because the person is gay. In fact, there is some doubt as to whether they even are gay.

It's got nothing to do with the person requesting the service, and everything to do with what they want the bakers to say.

How about having the words rape is hot? Do you think someone should be able to refuse to write that?

Quite frankly, it feels to me as it all the bloody grown-ups have left the building.

littlbrowndog · 15/08/2019 10:48

Yep let’s see how we would like compelled speech

CassianAndor · 15/08/2019 10:48

cheese I really do think you need to go and read up on this case before posting anymore.

DioneTheDiabolist · 15/08/2019 10:48

They did not refuse to serve the customer because he was gay. IIRC they previously had served the litigant in the bakery. They would have refused to write that message regardless of the sexuality of the customer requesting it.

placemats · 15/08/2019 10:50

It's a moot point whether he is a vexatious litigant. I support gay rights.

Obviously the bakers did not believe in gay marriage which is still not legal in Northern Ireland, which is part of the UK. Abortion is also severely restricted in Northern Ireland. Hopefully this will change because, I think it's a disgrace.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-49009056

My advice to him would be to move on, despite being sympathetic to his cause.

Datun · 15/08/2019 10:50

I don't think we are talking about writing whatever you like but if it isn't offensive or illegal than I am not sure we should allow personal prejudice to govern.

Deciding if something is offensive is completely subjective. How on earth are you going to do that?

There are a billion things that I find utterly offensive, which very many people say and promote all the time. Men can be women, for one.

TeamUnicorn · 15/08/2019 10:52

The next thing will be something you disagree with. But you've already set the precedent that you have no say in it.

This.

I think, sadly, people have taken this purely as a religious standpoint (yet fail to see the irony is being able to say that religion is a big fantasy) and fail to see the bigger picture. It starts with religion, it ends with, well anything.

The hair analogy is not the same, many hairdressers will refuse to cut certain BAME hair as it needs different care, but it is an experience thing rather than discrimination.

placemats · 15/08/2019 10:54

Also barbers are within their rights to refuse to cut female hair.

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 15/08/2019 10:55

Would they have refused to write ' Support Marriage'??

I have no idea and it is irrelevant to the point.

People have the right to hold and express their beliefs. That includes beliefs you or I don't personally agree with. They have the right not to be compelled to state beliefs they do not hold. That is what freedom of thought, conscience and belief means. It is what freedom of speech means. These freedoms are fundamental to democracy. Undermining them is totalitarian.

As long as they do, or do not, write slogans regardless of the status of the person asking for the slogan they are not discriminating. They are simply running their business in accordance with their beliefs. If you, or I, don't like it we can vote with our wallets and go elsewhere. That is our right.

TeamUnicorn · 15/08/2019 10:56

Society decides whats offensive and what isn't, I don't think we are talking about writing whatever you like but if it isn't offensive or illegal than I am not sure we should allow personal prejudice to govern.

I am offended by a pp writing that religion is a fantasy, so can people stop saying it.

LatteLove · 15/08/2019 10:59

They didn’t unlawfully discriminate
As had been determined by the Supreme Court.

I would downright refuse to ice a cake which conflicted with my personal beliefs. Things like TWAW, abortion is murder, no deal Brexit is amazing etc. Would I fuck write any of these and I don’t see why I should be forced to.

OnlyTheTitOfTheIceberg · 15/08/2019 11:01

This is not about refusal of service on the grounds of religion, since the bakers made and iced the cake, and offered the customer a supply of icing to pipe their own message. This is about an expectation that providing a service should include an element of compelled speech, which is contrary to the right to freedom of expression.

CassianAndor · 15/08/2019 11:01

placemats and I daresay the bakers support gay rights too. That doesn't mean that they have to change their deeply held belief that marriage is a sacred sacrament between a man and a woman.

CassianAndor · 15/08/2019 11:01

Christian belief, that should say.

placemats · 15/08/2019 11:01

Exactly LatteLove