The Biology of Fatherhood

[IdaBWells]

Fatherhood is a relatively new field of study, but so far studies of biological fathers living with their biological children have shown to lessen aggression in both sons and daughters. Having her biological father in the home also seems to postpone a daughter becoming sexually active and decrease a daughter’s likelihood in engaging in risky sexual behaviour.

Here is an interesting article www.fatherly.com/health-science/science-benefits-of-fatherhood-dads-father-effect/

I think it’s important to look at the biology of fatherhood so we can acknowledge the biological differences in both men and women and how their unique physical presence can have a protective and positive effective on children’s outcomes.

I believe studies have shown mothers and fathers (generally) play differently with their children. Men will do more physical play and more risky play

But why do you think this is caused by biology and not social factors?

Well Sonic do you believe biology is irrelevant?

When you say "biology", do you mean the fact they are male, or the fact they are the biological father?

I believe studies have shown mothers and fathers (generally) play differently with their children. Men will do more physical play and more risky play

That may well be the case, however, once again these differences would not be specific to mothers and fathers but would be differences between men and women.

There always have been and always will be many children growing up without one, other or both biological parents. That does not prevent those children from having positive male and female influences in their lives. Children also have grandparents, aunts and uncles, adult family friends and neighbours around who play with them.

Influences are not just about biological parents, and not having one or both around does not, in and of itself, lead to poorer outcomes for children.

Of course mothers and fathers have different reactions to and interactions with children. To suggest otherwise is a bit emperor’s new clothes. It’s too obvious for words. Just because we don’t always like the truth doesn’t make it untrue.
Of course children from stable, secure and loving families have advantages that children from broken homes or from feckless pregnancies miss out on. I’m not sure that’s about fathering per se though. I’d think those advantages were similar from enduring gay marriages.
Children with both close male and close female role models and where those role models teach children norms are going to have a more balanced perspective and understand biological impact.

I believe studies have shown mothers and fathers (generally) play differently with their children.

The idea that anyone should play with their children is very recent.

Until the end of the twentieth century women had very little control over the number of children they had, poor families would have spent most of their time trying to put food on the table, rich families would have delegated child care, and there was nobody much in between.

I don’t have a problem with people studying any area of science, but I think there is a danger with this area that people start with a preferred result and work backwards, despite there being very little data to prove a point either way.

Until recently most parents expected their children to start work at 11. There are no halcyon days to return to.

Of course mothers and fathers have different reactions to and interactions with children.

If it’s so obvious can you describe them?

If it’s so obvious can you describe them?

To me the most obvious difference is in shear physicality.

I have never run the length of a football pitch with four children aged 8 down to 3 hanging off me. I don't have the physical strength to carry four children at once. Mr Whatshisknickers used to do so with our children and their cousins.

More importantly there are areas of my son's and nephews' lives that I simply don't have the experience to understand in the way a man does. I will never know the teenage rush of testosterone and the feelings that come from it because I am not male. A man is better placed than me to help a teenage boy understand his developing body and to control the emotions associated with male hormones.

merrymouse I indeed can but it won’t be popular.
Carrying a child for nine months, feeling it move inside you, resenting how rubbish it sometimes makes you feel, knowing what you do impacts on their long term wellbeing is very different basis for a relationship and has a very enduring effect.
The process of giving birth has to be the most fundamental event that men cannot hope to experience. It is literally life giving and transformative in terms of both mother and child and their relationships.
Breastfeeding can only be done by a mother. The ability to provide entirely for a child, from your own body, has a deep psychological impact on both mother and child. Yes, fed is best but breastfeeding is the Gold Standard for more reasons than a reduction in lactose intolerance and reduced obesity risk.
We can deny biology to suit ourselves but men and women have different roles from conception.

*Both my dc are high achieving.

I am a lone parent, their father is abusive and only parents when and how it suits him, not for the dc's benefit.

Can you explain, OP?*

Not OP, but this is the anecdotal fallacy; single parenting does actually correlate with worse outcomes, but hard to say if it’s because of socioeconomic reasons or because of the lack of a father figure.

merrymouse I indeed can but it won’t be popular.

I agree with everything you say about the physical aspects of being a mother (although I am not convinced that breast feeding makes that much difference where other good alternatives are available - but that is an argument for another thread), but the article isn’t talking about the physical aspects of being a parent.

arnold again you are talking about physical aspects of being a parent. I have rarely had to carry 2 children at the same time, so I don’t think the ability to carry 4 is vital.

I agree that it’s more difficult to talk to a child about a physical process you can’t experience, but most of my parenting revolves around making sure there is something to eat in the house, not discussing puberty.

Humans are successful as a species because we are adaptable, not because we have evolved a uniform style of parenting.

We can’t change the physical aspects of being a parent, but I think the traditional idea of the ‘father figure’ is a result of men being left off the hook when it comes to the day to day grind, and then being given special jobs to make them feel important.

knowing what you do impacts on their long term wellbeing is very different basis for a relationship and has a very enduring effect

Maybe for some, but I’m not thinking about what it was like to be pregnant when I interact with my children now.

merrymouse

I was mixing up two quotes and should have been clearer.

The first part was meant to be an example of the specific interaction that is play, not a more general daily grind type interactions.

I do think men play with children in a more physical manner, simply because they can.

You sound so right until I look at this closer. Most women do not get together with a man thinking it will just be for a little while. Things go wrong and plans backfire.

I'm sure that's true, and yet it's still quite bad for children.

So what does that say about the fact that it happens quite a lot, how would we address that? What kinds of social values or practices might support a situation where that doesn't happen? What kind of common wisdom or advice? What kinds of things would we want a mom who is dating to think about when making decisions about what to do?

What kinds of things would we want a mom who is dating to think about when making decisions about what to do?

Not sure why you are holding mothers responsible if it's the men who are abandoning their children.

Not sure why you are holding mothers responsible if it's the men who are abandoning their children.

Is it? I am sure in the group "single mothers" there are all kinds of situations reflected.

In any case, once someone is a single mother, the father of their kids is hardly the one deciding who they date or live with, so it isn't much good holing him responsible. I can't imagine most women would be very keen on too much input from that direction.

Fucking hell Goosefoot. Your misogyny nearly had my eye out

Children of widows have much better outcomes than children of women whose relationship has broken up. There are various possible factors that could contribute to that, but one is the heredity factor I mentioned above.

Couples who split up are more likely to have at least one member who has characteristics that make functioning in a stable relationship more difficult; and those same characteristics could be passed on to the children to some degree, affecting the children's ability to function (remember this is all statistical tendencies, not absolute outcomes).

Correlation really doesn't necessarily indicate causation.

Feminism is about liberation of women in my opinion. Offering "wisdom" and "advice" to "moms who are dating" doesn't sound liberating at all to me. None of the ideas on this thread feel very liberating for women at all - telling women how to live their lives, avoiding single parenting or lesbian parenting or having a baby by sperm donation or parenting with a non-biological dad "for the sake of the children" based on shaky or no evidence.

"In any case, once someone is a single mother, the father of their kids is hardly the one deciding who they date or live with"

And the mother wouldn't decide who the father of her children dated or lived with. That is generally what happens when the parents of a child are not together. I'm still not sure why you are focussing on the mother's behaviour.

merrymouse Are you seriously suggesting their is no psychological element to carrying, birthing and feeding an infant? Do you not consider this builds a very complex bond?
There is evidence (Tavistock, Cambridge, Bowlby) that shows association between positive thoughts and feelings about the infant during pregnancy and later interaction with the infant, but only in mothers. There is strong evidence that the prenatal period is vital in the bonding and attachment of infants. Fathers can’t experience the same effect because they cannot physically.

The implications for children are enormous. 40% of children nowadays have insecure attachments. They aren’t getting the parenting they need from anyone. Unsurprisingly , there are factors that increase risk and exacerbate poor attachment. The effects on a child can be lifelong.

Children can attach to fathers but the best indicator for secure attachment is a sensitive and nurturing bond where both parents are also happy in their relationship.
It’s not a feminist issue. It’s a child welfare issue. Increasing numbers of children are suffering because of poor early attachment.

tavistockrelationships.ac.uk/policy-research/policy-briefings/335-relationships-infant-mental-health

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3083029/#!po=15.8537

I’m afraid the evidence about the advantages of breastfeeding are irrefutable but unpopular with those who chose not to or who see infant feeding as in some way oppressive.

Children of widows have much better outcomes than children of women whose relationship has broken up. There are various possible factors that could contribute to that, but one is the heredity factor I mentioned above

Financial issues will come into. There may have been life insurance- even just a mortgage protection policy will help a lot so the widow owns her home outright. Widows's state pensions aren't hugely significant but there may be a private pension pot which becomes accessible on death.

merrymouse Are you seriously suggesting their is no psychological element to carrying, birthing and feeding an infant? Do you not consider this builds a very complex bond?

I'm not saying that it has no impact, but I think it's insignificant compared to the bond created by actually caring for a child after birth. I also don't think breastfeeding is necessary to create a bond with a child. I breast fed my children, but I don't think it created a bond that was intrinsically superior in any way.

association between positive thoughts and feelings about the infant during pregnancy and later interaction with the infant, but only in mothers.

Only mothers can become pregnant, so it would be very surprising if fathers shared the same feelings about being pregnant.

However, some mothers have a very negative experience of pregnancy and birth. There is no universal experience of birth. Fathers, and adoptive parents also clearly form strong bonds with their children and some birth mothers do not (just look at the toxic parent threads).

40% of children nowadays have insecure attachments.. I'm really not sure what to do with that information - do you think 40% of children are doomed because of their insecure attachments? If the number is that high, I'd question whether attachment is that important.

I’m afraid the evidence about the advantages of breastfeeding are irrefutable

There is evidence that breast feeding is better, but the degree to which it is better is not clear and different studies provide different results.

but unpopular with those who chose not to or who see infant feeding as in some way oppressive.

Again, I breast fed my children. I just don't think there is evidence to show that it makes a massive long term difference that overrides all other influences. You seem to discount all the very negative experiences of breast feeding that some women have.

I'm not sure I understand what's implied by biology. There's obviously an attachment between father and child. Fathers can contribute a great deal to a child's security and well being but parenting isn't necessarily natural it's mainly cultural. There's been a lot of work done in the past on encouraging fathers to support child's education. Libraries have done much in the past (before cuts) to encourage boys reading through fathers involvement. I've worked with working class teenage fathers who were keen to do the best for their child. I've worked with male prisoners on projects reading bedtime stories to their kids on tape.
But all this is true of adoptive parents or stepfathers just as much as biological fathers.

Even if a marriage breaks down that doesn't mean the father child relationship does. It's the child's welfare that counts.

There is no evidence of a negative impact of living in a single parent household on children’s wellbeing, with
regard to self-reported life satisfaction, quality of peer relationships, or positivity about family life. Children
who are living or have lived in single parent families score as highly, or higher, against each measure of
wellbeing than those who have always lived in two parent families.

www.sheffield.ac.uk/news/nr/single-parent-families-crook-fellowship-gingerbread-1.823016