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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Caroline Lucas calls for an all-women cabinet

113 replies

Gone2far · 12/08/2019 08:41

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I think she's lost the plot and that an all-women cabinet would have no special powers. Why are women supposed to be innately better at governing than men?

OP posts:
GrammarTeacher · 12/08/2019 11:10

It's nonsense anyway. I'll just mention Priti Patel and rest my case!

DarlingNikita · 12/08/2019 11:16

if this group of women give any indication of interest it would send an earthquake through the system and possibly force labour to reconsider their strategy.

That's a big if and a huge, and stupid, gamble. And already undermined by Soubry's eminently sensible response.

dolorsit · 12/08/2019 11:19

So is Mark Drakeford

I was pointing out why Anne Widdecombe wasn't written to but another non mp woman was. It's a political stunt.

As I pointed out I am not in favour of an all female cabinet but there are a lot of posts asking what is Lucas thinking.

I am trying to explain what I think the political strategy is.

I am not defending the concept.

I don't think it is likely to happen.

In the unlikely event this group of women did come together they do not make a full cabinet never mind a full government. There will be plenty of space for men to take positions.

But don't worry it's not going to happen.

RedToothBrush · 12/08/2019 11:33

Words can not express how dumb as fuck this is.

It serves to reinforce the idea of how away with the fairies The Green Party is.

I don't see how it doesn't reinforce stereotypes either.

Also, is this based on sex or gender identity? Given Lucas apparently believes that self ID and acceptance without questioning what difference will this make?

Its a load of bollocks.

Its playing straight into the traps of the culture war. And that doesn't serve the interests of women.

Idiot.

dolorsit · 12/08/2019 11:37

Ok I can see some people are more interested in being outraged at a political stunt rather than discussing the possible reasons for the stunt.

As I don't actually support the idea of a female unity cabinet I'm going to drop out as my theories of political manoeuvring are being read as a defence.

However I amused at the what's in it for Grieve?

Er stopping a no Deal which he considers to be a disaster? Opening a route for a second referendum?

I know it is hard to believe but Grieve isn't doing what he's doing for personal political power.

RoyalCorgi · 12/08/2019 11:40

It serves to reinforce the idea of how away with the fairies The Green Party is.

This, a hundred times. What I'd really like now is for John McDonnell or someone to say, "I identify as female and want to be in the all-female cabinet" and see how she takes it.

BrainFart · 12/08/2019 11:50

IME, politicans don't have much interest in doing things they don't get any credit for (and he wouldn't get any credit for it, Caroline Lucas and her "girl power" cabinet would).

Perhaps I'm just too jaded. Perhaps Grieve is the "one good man", but there are too many MPs, on both sides of the house, who are voting against their conscience with one eye on maintaining their position, to make me truly believe he would.

As for the possible reasons, they don't matter. She has single-handedly reintroduced the idea that selection for government positions should be based upon sex (and by extension race, religion, sexuality etc...) into public debate, and in doing so made even decent-minded people sceptical that anybody who protests against inequality won't actively seek that inequality when they can turn it in their favour. Well done, Caroline Lucas.

Michelleoftheresistance · 12/08/2019 12:20

I'm with the Queen: the quality of MP in this country is currently embarrassing. I also read that headline and thought what Lucas actually means is a cabinet of people who like pink and have long hair or something because the Green party don't say nasty things like biological sex exists. Honestly, what's the point in a cabinet of people who perform femininity? What political weight does that achieve?

And yes, all flippancy aside, that she's presenting inequality as a right thinking, nay even a normal thing to do in 2019 as an MP.... how much more farcical can it get?

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 12/08/2019 12:25

Perhaps Grieve is the "one good man", but there are too many MPs, on both sides of the house, who are voting against their conscience with one eye on maintaining their position, to make me truly believe he would

I believe he would. But that is precisely the reason it is a silly stunt in the first place. There are few enough MPs upholding their oath to serve in the interests of all their constituents, not just the 27% of the population who voted for this farce, as is. To exclude a number of those few principled MPs on the basis of their sex is madness.

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving · 12/08/2019 12:28

The idea that women are generally better at cooperating hasn't been pulled out of thin air, there is actually a fair bit of evidence to support it. The idea as I understand it is that women > men at communicating and cooperating so bringing together an emergency all female cabinet to resolve a complex toxic failing negotiation will be more effective than a male/ mixed sex cabinet.

However, this is one of the times when we are actually interested in gender rather than sex, because the idea that women are better communicators/ cooperators is, as someone else pointed out, a gendered stereotype. It may also be true to a degree, but that's a result of female socialisation, not some magic female cooperation gene. So what Lucas should actually be looking for is a cabinet full of the best cooperators, who are least likely to exhibit masculine grandstanding and power grabbing. Given the current gender expectations of men and women, such a cabinet would probably contain more women than men, but may also contain men like Grieve and exclude women like Widdecombe. My (long winded) point is that what Lucas means when she says she wants an all woman cabinet is that she wants a cabinet full of people who behave in a certain way most commonly associated with people socialised female.

Anyway, like others have said it's never going to happen and it's dumb anyway because it misses the point by about a million miles over why Brexit is actually happening. A no deal Brexit isn't on the cards because of a lack of skilled male negotiators, it's on the cards because a lot of very wealthy people have a financial interest in it happening. The idea that if we'd just had a better team of people involved in negotiating a No Deal Brexit wouldn't be happening is so so naive. No deal was always the goal, right from the start.

As for the "your fantasy cab is too white" comments, that also misses the point spectacularly. The point is to bring together the best cooperators. Lucas believe sex is relevant in that equation so she's assembled a cab based on sex. She clearly doesn't think race is relevant to that equation, so why would she consider the race of the women in her cab? It's not like she only reached out to white women because she thinks white women are better cooperators than WOC. Now, if you said that she should include WOC because their perspective is valuable for representing the different demographics in our country then yes, that'd be a fair point. But if your goal is to fairly represent the demographic of our country then you would also have to include men, so the argument fails on every level.

Wurzelsnewhead · 12/08/2019 12:43

Oh that’s too funny..... I expect her lightbulb moment of an all ‘woman’ cabinet will be the Pip Bunce variety.

ThePurported · 12/08/2019 12:49

Oh for heaven's sake, Caroline.
By CL's logic, Theresa May would have succeeded in whatever she was trying to achieve, if only she had had an all non-men cabinet. I'm not sure CL would have applauded an all-women line-up of McVey, Jenkyns, Patel, Leadsom etc.

What I'd really like now is for John McDonnell or someone to say, "I identify as female and want to be in the all-female cabinet" and see how she takes it.
^Excellent suggestion. Or he could identify as Dominic Grieve, who apparently has enough womanly qualities to serve in Caroline's fantasy cabinet.

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 12/08/2019 12:56

Or he could identify as Dominic Grieve, who apparently has enough womanly qualities to serve in Caroline's fantasy cabinet.

I'm really pleased to learn that sticking to ones principles is a 'womanly' quality.

At last I'm getting a bit of womaning right!

ThePurported · 12/08/2019 13:03

As for the "your fantasy cab is too white" comments, that also misses the point spectacularly. The point is to bring together the best cooperators. Lucas believe sex is relevant in that equation so she's assembled a cab based on sex. She clearly doesn't think race is relevant to that equation, so why would she consider the race of the women in her cab?

So why Emily Thornberry, but not Diane Abbott?

RoyalCorgi · 12/08/2019 13:17

So what Lucas should actually be looking for is a cabinet full of the best cooperators, who are least likely to exhibit masculine grandstanding and power grabbing.

I very much agree with this, and with the rest of your post. It would be fun to try to put together a cabinet of people with exactly those talents of co-operation, negotiation and so on. I think generally those qualities are probably in short supply amongst politicians, particularly the ambitious ones. Yvette Cooper seems pretty good to me. Not sure who else, though.

BrainFart · 12/08/2019 13:27

I think generally those qualities are probably in short supply amongst politicians, particularly the ambitious ones.

I love the idea that people who have risen to become MPs, and recognised as powerful / ambitious, have done so with reduced abilities in cooperation and negotiation. What properties do you think got them there in the first place ? Do you genuinely believe Boris Johnson, for example, has poorer powers of cooperation and negotiation than the average MP ? Or would it be too horrific to realise that, actually, he is probably amongst the most cooperative and best negotiators in the HoP (and I say this as someone who loathes him) and that is exactly why he has been able to negotiate his way to the top ?

CL said women because she meant women. Not best negotiators. Not best cooperators. I agree wholeheartedly that the best cooperators and negotiators should be there. Unfortunately a) plenty of them are horrifically morally compromised and b) it is not split along sex lines.

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving · 12/08/2019 13:35

So why Emily Thornberry, but not Diane Abbott?

I don't know, maybe it was an unconscious racist bias. My point was that she wasn't considering race in her equation. Her thinking was "I think women are better at negotiating than men, so let me choose an all women cabinet". She only believes that sex is relevant to negotiating ability. Saying "those women are all white" is based on believing that both sex and race are relevant to negotiating ability, as in "yes an all women cab is better than a mixed/ male cab, but a racially diverse all woman cab is better than a white all woman cab". And whilst there is evidence that there's a sex based difference when it comes to negotiating, there's no evidence that there's a race based difference. So you could plausibly say that an all women cab is better at negotiating than an all male cab, but I don't see how it's plausible to say that a racially mixed cab is more effective at negotiating than an all white cab. A racially mixed cab is important for representing the different perspectives in our country, so you could definitely argue the cab was too white from that perspective, but if your reasoning was based on representing diversity then the cab should also include men. What I'm trying to say is that the fantasy cab is too white, but not for the reasons it's being criticised for. An all white cab fails for the same reason an all women cab fails - it doesn't adequately reflect our population. But since race, unlike sex, isn't relevant to negotiating skills sex, the ethnic make up of the cab shouldn't make any difference from that POV. You might as well say that the cab was too full of able bodied people. Is there a link between disability and negotiating skills? Would including a woman with disabilities make the cab better at negotiating. I don't see how. It's the same principle with race.

Abraid2 · 12/08/2019 13:46

Why didn’t CL just vote for Theresa may in the first place? She’s a woman and she had a deal.

PanGalaticGargleBlaster · 12/08/2019 14:45

The idea that women are generally better at cooperating hasn't been pulled out of thin air, there is actually a fair bit of evidence to support it.

Clearly the evidence did not include numerous episodes of The Apprentice

RoyalCorgi · 12/08/2019 14:49

Do you genuinely believe Boris Johnson, for example, has poorer powers of cooperation and negotiation than the average MP ?

Everything I've read about Boris Johnson from former colleagues suggests precisely that.

RoyalCorgi · 12/08/2019 14:53

This, from Sonia Purnell, for example:

"Johnson has always wanted to win at all costs, by fooling people into believing his performance or by sabotaging rivals if necessary. Indeed, the first time I met him, me fresh off the plane as an eager new correspondent, he knowingly sent me in the wrong direction for a press conference in one of the main EU buildings so that I arrived unprofessionally late."

BrainFart · 12/08/2019 15:02

From a clearly unbiased source who in-no-way bears a grudge against him ?

I'm not defending him, he's quite clearly a prick. But to pretend that he has climbed to the heights of PM whilst being a poor negotiator or bad at cooperating, just can't be true. He needed support from somewhere, how did he get it ? How did he convince those people in the PCP, then the Tory party as a whole, that he was the best bet ? He must have fairly considerable powers of something...

BrainFart · 12/08/2019 15:06

Or, if he and other top politicians don't have these skills then what are they truly worth in the political world if you can rise to the top without them ?

TowelNumber42 · 12/08/2019 15:07

There's enough sexist gendered brains bullshit around without this too. FFS.

RuffleCrow · 12/08/2019 15:18

That's a completely meaningless statement and she knows it. The Green Party believes anyone who says they're a woman or feels a bit 'feminine' 2 days a week automatically is a woman. So theoretically Boris could declare himself A Lady tomorrow and make Caz's day Hmm