TW in lesbian social group

[magnoliastellata]

I've changed my name for this post. I'm a GC lesbian and I've been going to one particular social group for the last couple of years. We organise meet-ups through a closed FB group. There are probably about 50 of us but we don't all know each other or all meet up at any one time so I'm constantly meeting members I don't know. Anyone wishing to be involved needs to be introduced by someone already in the group. There is no specific NoTW rule but I would say that most women involved are GC and when we say 'lesbian' we don't mean someone with a dick. There are a couple of woke and blissfully-unthinking women but we're a closed FB group with a requirement that new recruits are vouched for by existing members precisely because we want to avoid being infiltrated by men.

I've missed the last couple of months' activities but went for a walk and then to a pub with the dykes last Sunday. We were joined by a number of other group members and an individual some of the women greeted by name and seemed to know.

I know women come in all shapes and sizes and styles and I respect that. The group includes some very masculine-looking women but I've never mistaken them for men. All I can say is that this person is very unusual looking; very pronounced jaw and heavy brow, no hips or bottom and what I think might be described as a beer belly with what looked to me more like moobs than boobs resting on top. They also had a very, very deep voice. My instinctive response to the entire package was 'Man alert, unidentified man in the lesbian group!'

I talked to this individual and their girlfriend for some time. Just the usual getting-to-know-you chat. The girlfriend seemed very subdued and nervous. The other one, the one who was already known to some of the group, stuck rigidly to vague factual information about the area of work they're in and their recent holiday and chose their words very carefully.

It turns out that neither lives in the area and that they'd driven more than 100 miles to get to the pub that night. The one I think may be a man was born locally and is a friend of a woman in the group (not one of the women who was there that night) and has, through her, gained access and attended occasional events.

I was given a lift home afterwards and as soon as the car started I asked the other three if anyone else had any concerns. Turns out that though the others in the car are GC and though they'd thought there was something weird, no one had wanted to go there. Once I voiced my thoughts they were 'Oh fuck, now you say it...'

Is any of this familiar to anyone out there? What did you do?

So this person basically passed, more or less? That's your feeling. I'm not sure what to say although I do remember Mary Daly talking about TW in one of her books. One of the things she said men like to do is "spook" women and they have a variety of ways of doing this. Trans is one of those ways. Your post does make like you've been "spooked" somehow, thrown off centre, something you can't really put your finger on. Your instincts are probably correct. How horrible that this kind of spooking of women goes on.

I wouldn't call it 'spooked'. Spooked has the implication that this is an irrational response and something that perhaps I need to get over. Horses get spooked by a branch or a bird, things there's no reason to be spooked by.

There's nothing irrational about joining a group intended for lesbian women and feeling a mixture of irritation, anger and concern that there is someone who is possibly (probably) not female in it and that other women have overridden their suspicions in order not to cause ructions.

I dont always agree with what you say Sakura but i think i this instance you are spot on.

To me it feels like your brain having a bizarre arguement with itself over reality and social conditioning.

This post is... rather odd.

OP in case you’re not aware, this site is watched, so not sure it’s the best place to discuss closed groups. In terms of privacy and security for you and others.

Your group sounds a lovely one - I’m sure you’ll be able to resolve

Agree with 2B. Unfortunately. It's bloody great progress when people are uncomfortable to talk about something so simple as a lesbian social group on a public forum :(

There are a couple of woke and blissfully-unthinking women

Typically patronising description so typical of these boards.

Typically patronising description so typical of these boards.

It's not wrong though, is it.

Hi magnoliastellata

I think it says a lot about how users feel about mumsnet that you have come here to discuss your problem.

Those who think you shouldn't just dont need to join in.

I think you have a problem in that you obviously value being part of the lesbian meet up group, but the presence of this person is impacting negatively.

If you know who the woman is who vouched for this person to join I think you should talk to them

Obviously this could all go wrong. You might be wrong. You might be right and then in no time at all lines will be drawn, oh its okay they are the friend of a friend.

So you could just keep on going to meet ups and hope they aren't there.

Or you could question what has happened but be prepared for it to mean you may end up without the meet up group. (Just for raising the issue)

Agree sakura . Case in point:

Pictures didn't upload!

Hmm I see what you're saying about the word being spooked as being an irrational response.

But that's not what Daly meant because she regarded TW as agents of spooking, that it was something they did on purpose to women. So the reaction of the woman was the desired effect IYSWIM

The way the group is structured, I would say that the vouching member needs to be the one you approach. It will likely be awkward the hope is always that members will use good judgement and you won't have to address issues of someone not fitting the parameters of the group, but sometimes someone misjudges.

The other option might be, if they live far a away, to ignore it and consider this couple occasional guests, but clarify with members who is and is not eligible.

What can be difficult is if a fracture develops because it becomes clear there is a real difference of opinion in the membership.

If that's what your instincts are telling you, you're probably right, magnoliastellata. If the group has always been exclusively lesbian you have a right to say something.

Could you speak privately to the woman who introduced this couple to group? It's the sort of delicate conversation that would be best in person. It's not that you're objecting to this individual personally - you'd feel the same about any male entering the group.

This is a horrible position to be in. You have my sympathy.

With regard to this 'spooked' feeling I know there is a phenomen associated with artifical intelligence looking 'too human' at which point it provokes a feeling of uneasiness in people, called 'Uncanny Valley'. In other words, we can still tell the difference even if something is artifically designed to look as close as possible to humans.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley

I do wonder where there is a little bit of something similar going on with tthis situation too.

If you had someone trying to look like the opposite sex and even perhaps had some surgery to pass even more, then I guess its possible you'd get the same feeling as anything we detect as 'not normal' or 'slightly off' in other humans triggers evolutionary instinctive responses we don't fully understand yet.

The theories about what instincts triggers Uncanny Valley are interesting and worth reading on the link above. Some of these would go a long way to explaining something you 'can't quite put your finger on'.

Thanks to @Goosefoot and @stumbledin and @Prawnofthepatriarchy for actually having some sense of the dynamics of this situation. I'm baffled by the warning not to discuss this situation in case – of what? Isn't telling women to shut up and be careful doing the TAs job for them? If there are other lesbians out there facing a similar situation I want them to know they're not alone.

I can see that I'm going to have to ask around and find out who vouched for this person and ask how long they've known them and whether they are sure they are actually XX female. If it turns out that my gut instinct was right I'm going to have to decide whether it's worth staying in the group. I really do value and enjoy it but I think those of us who are GC and for whom the right of women to gather without men is paramount are going to have to create a separate group which is more clear and stringent about it being for XX lesbians only.

I know this kind of thing is going on in women's and lesbian groups all over the place. I'd be interested to hear others' experiences.

I can see that I'm going to have to ask around and find out who vouched for this person and ask how long they've known them and whether they are sure they are actually XX female

I definitely think you should do this now. I haven’t had a similar experience, but I’ve heard it spoken about often. There’s a risk that if this is a TW, once they is accepted into your group, they might well introduce more TW friends.

Obviously if it is a TW and female partner, then you have a straight couple who have joined your lesbian group. I’ve read about lesbian groups being led by straight couples. Those who believe TWAW and that TW can be lesbian might be fine with this. But if someone is speaking for my community, I would want them to be representative, not attempted facsimile.

I can see that I'm going to have to ask around and find out who vouched for this person and ask how long they've known them and whether they are sure they are actually XX female

But if they are a friend of someone in your group who invited them in, I'd assume that person thinks TWAW and that they therefore think it's perfectly ok for a heterosexual male to claim the title of lesbian and infiltrate your group.

I think you'll find there's other general agreements along radical feminists, or radical leaning women. Like , no more fucking with seeds and food, which is regarded by radical women as patriarchal practices

That's possible, but if so then the group is going to have to clarify for themselves how they want to deal with this sort of question.

I'm sad to hear you're forced to consider making a second group to try and re establish a female only space. But it is a sad fact that infiltrating and gaining entry to such spaces against the will of the group is a very motivating goal to some, for a range of reasons. And a weak spot in the whole single sex space argument is often a woman saying 'but we should make an exception for X because X is my friend and is lovely'.

And a weak spot in the whole single sex space argument is often a woman saying 'but we should make an exception for X because X is my friend and is lovely'.

Yes. And sometimes exceptions make sense.

But often people fail to consider the wider implications of an exception. For example, if you let this person in, can you then refuse other, similar persons, without it being hurtful or causing difficulties? Or if they come and it doesn't work out, are you really going to ask them to leave?

You almost need rules for exceptions.

I don't join lesbian groups for fear of this.

I know this kind of thing is going on in women's and lesbian groups all over the place. I'd be interested to hear others' experiences.

My experience is that every public or semi-public social group of lesbian women I've had any involvement in in recent years has had males in it - You might occasionally get an individual get together where none of the males are there but generally if a group of lesbians meet up, you can expect at least one or two males to be present and, although some of us discuss it privately, no one really dares say anything.

A trend I've noticed a lot in my social circle is that we meet a lot more away from these public groups - Women swap numbers and just invite certain (female) people to get together a lot more than happened in the past. (Previously you might check with a friend if they were going to x event/group but many women still used the groups to meet up, even if they already had lesbian friends.) Some of these women I know are gender critical and some haven't openly said that but have still moved over to more private meetups.

If you're only getting one male every now and again (and you can't resolve this) I think it's still worth attending these events to meet other women but also think about swapping details and arranging to meet separately as well.