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Kathy Burke "All Woman" article and TV

69 replies

Sicario · 07/08/2019 10:16

Kathy Burke's 3 part documentary "All Woman" starts on ITV next Tuesday 13 August. There's an article about it in The Grauniad today which you can read here...

www.theguardian.com/culture/2019/aug/07/kathy-burke-after-i-got-sick-the-toughest-thing-was-what-it-did-to-my-mental-health

OP posts:
BuzzShitbagBobbly · 09/08/2019 19:07

Bumping this as KB on the One Show right now (Friday).

She seems exceptionally clear as to what a woman (adult human female type) is, in context of the people staffing the tv series mentioned; and the people she is meeting on it.

Funny, that.

nettie434 · 14/08/2019 23:51

Just watched episode 1. Has anyone else seen it? Thought it was very good and refreshing

SonicVersusGynaephobia · 15/08/2019 04:54

We talked about maybe talking to trans women in this, but it’s such a huge subject that I, personally, didn’t want it to be just a passing moment,” says Burke. “I think that needs to be a whole separate programme.”

I think this thought process that they’re trying to wipe out women is a bit ridiculous – it’s a minority of people.”

I think these are positive, pro-women statements actually. She didn't include them in her programme about women, and reading between the lines, it an because they are not women and need a separate show. Also, they are a minority, so why would we derail a show about women to include a tiny minority of males? So she didn't. She said they wouldn't "wipe out" women, partly because in her show, she didn't let it happen, maybe a "this is my programme and I'm keeping it about women".

And yes to the Guardian trying to constantly show-horn in transwomen to everything about women. They did the same to Laura Dodsworth in her 100 Vulvas interview and Laura side-stepped it brilliantly. Later, when she did the Channel 4 documentary of 100 Vaginas (and we know how woke C4 are) she included the wonderful transsexual Seven Hex, who very pointedly said "it's not a vagina". It was very deliberate, and expertly navigated.

JustWantALoverLikeAnyOther · 15/08/2019 11:58

With respect, Sonic, I think you have overlooked some of her words to put a positive spin on what she said.

She said she didnt want to include TW not because they are 'not women', but because it's a huge subject and didn't want it to he a passing moment.

She didn't say that they are a small minority and wouldn't derail women in her show because she wouldn't let it, she said she thinks the whole thought process (i.e. what is debated on here) is 'ridiculous'.

SonicVersusGynaephobia · 15/08/2019 13:57

Well we don't know that she thinks the "whole thought process" that is debated on here is ridiculous, do we, Just. So we will just have to interpret her words however we see fit. I for one appreciate the position that the Guardian and its band of merrymen likes to put women in when it comes to this topic and don't blame anyone for side-stepping it diplomatically.

JustWantALoverLikeAnyOther · 15/08/2019 14:34

I think this thought process that they’re trying to wipe out women is a bit ridiculous – it’s a minority of people.”

I think her words are quite clear here tbh.

Saucery · 15/08/2019 14:38

But she still refused to make a series about women that included transwomen. Good on her.

joggerbottom · 15/08/2019 15:49

Nettie- I watched it and thought she was great.

SonicVersusGynaephobia · 15/08/2019 16:04

I think this thought process that they’re trying to wipe out women is a bit ridiculous – it’s a minority of people.”

I think her words are quite clear here tbh.

I also think the idea that they will "wipe out women" is a bit ridiculous. We'll still exist in reality, even if legally we don't. If we are "wiped out", then the human race ceases to exist very quickly so it's kind of moot.

I still think good on her.

JoxerGoesToStuttgart · 15/08/2019 16:23

I think KBs comments in response to why she didn’t include men in her programme are very clever responses. She’s treading a very fine line. The tide has not yet turned. It is not yet safe to say transwomen aren’t women. As a person who makes her living out of being liked by the media she’s needs to tread carefully. She has successfully produced a series about only women (which is quite the achievement these days, lets be honest) without making herself a target for death threats, rape threats, public attacks, sabotage of her programme etc from angry entitled men. I think her comments were the key to that. I’m not sure I’d have managed to come up with such carefully worded responses to the same questions.

Also, I loved the first episode! Particularly her meeting with the rapper woman (Naomi?) and her response to the woman’s fantastic attitude.

Ladyfat · 16/08/2019 09:59

I don’t think she’s with us on this. You have to remember she makes a lot of money from being a bit of a LGBTBBQ+ icon because of Gimme Gimme Gimme. It’s in her favour to support the movement and at the moment supporting the movement means supporting the trans. I think she genuinely thinks the trans thing is a tiny minority when in reality it’s a growing threat. It’s really easy to read what you want to into her comments tho, but sadly I’m this case I don’t think she’s clued up enough about it.

She also of course spent quite a bit of the 90s dressed as a teenage boy so... 😉

Ladyfat · 16/08/2019 10:00

And yes as JustWantALover said “I think this thought process that they’re trying to wipe out women is a bit ridiculous – it’s a minority of people.” is quite explicitly ridiculing us!

Angryresister · 16/08/2019 10:09

On Woman's Hour Kathy spoke well about the fact that young women and girls are wanting to change their bodies to conform to the beauty that will, theoretically make them happy. She was clearly questioning this and some discussion of how young women are being mutilated for the Trans cause would have been appropriate as part of the discussion. I think she is well aware of concerns but chooses not to include them in her criticisms.

CaramelWayfarer · 16/08/2019 10:20

As far as TW are concerned they are 100% women, so why do we have to go out of our way to include them? If they are women then all the issues covered by Kathy in episode 1 relate to them as well? I'm sure they are influenced by Instagram, plastic surgery etc. Why do we have to go out of our way to make sure they are included when as far as they are concerned they are no different from the rest of us?

butteryellow · 16/08/2019 11:07

And yes as JustWantALover said “I think this thought process that they’re trying to wipe out women is a bit ridiculous – it’s a minority of people.” is quite explicitly ridiculing us!

It's not ridiculing me, because that isn't a thought process I follow - it's not 'wiping out women' it's wiping out the concept of woman as a definable group - very different. Women will still exist, who else is going to birth babies and wipe bums? We'll just not have a name for this group of generally smaller people, who are vulnerable to pregnancy and all the other things that go along with being a woman (adult, human, female) as opposed to a 'woman' (anyone who says they are)

It's either not understanding the issue/argument, or it's one of those political sidesteps where you provide a strawman answer to avoid the question that's been asked

Ladyfat · 16/08/2019 11:14

No, it was a swipe at the gender critical movement, everyone who has mentioned lesbian erasure, REAL women missing out on places in all women shortlists, every time a bloke in a dress gets interviewed for women’s day etc etc. That is wiping out women. It was a swipe at it all.

Ihaventgottimeforthis · 16/08/2019 13:27

To be honest I don't think Kathy would give a shit if she was 'disappointing' people. She's a great role model for women, her programme was great, she's a strong person with her own views and voice and they don't have to agree with what we think, I still admire her hugely.
We're also taking an article not written by her, merely using quotes of what she said, perhaps out of context, to represent a hugely complex and evolving feminist ethical issue. I'm confident with where she stands.

Ereshkigal · 16/08/2019 14:05

It’s really easy to read what you want to into her comments tho, but sadly I’m this case I don’t think she’s clued up enough about it.

If she was truly woke I think she'd have made sure there was an MTF trans person on the programme so as not to "other" them.

Ereshkigal · 16/08/2019 14:07

I like to measure people by what they do. KB made a programme about women that only features women. I bet she held out against a fair bit of pressure to include males. Plus she’s talented and bloody hilarious.

And yes, I'm with Bernard on this. I can't believe she wouldn't have been strongly encouraged to feature this perspective of "womanhood".

JustWantaloverLikeAnyOther · 16/08/2019 16:47

it was a swipe at the gender critical movement...

That's how I read it too.

Obviously, no one thinks there will be a literal wiping out of women. No matter how many times we are told to DIAGF.

There was no need for her to mention TW at all. They dont need to talked about at all if it's not about them.

I saw an advert today for a woman only activity. TW just simply weren't mentioned. No talk of inclusivity, no talk of 'identifying as women', no apology, no justification; just women.

Ladyfat · 16/08/2019 17:23

Exactly, I do not consider transwomen to be women and it would not enter my head to speak of them if I was talking of women’s issues.

JoxerGoesToStuttgart · 16/08/2019 18:10

KB is nobodies puppet. She may have a huge woke fanbase but ask her if TWAW and she wouldn’t lie. She may deflect the question. But she knows they aren’t women.

SonicVersusGynaephobia · 17/08/2019 19:26

There was no need for her to mention TW at all. They dont need to talked about at all if it's not about them.

Was she not asked in an interview?

MrsToddsShortcut · 19/08/2019 22:07

I loved the programme and am looking forward to seeing the rest of the series.

It's possible that there are elements of the issue that she hasn't thought of or about yet.

When I first dipped my toe in GC waters years ago, I hadn't thought at all about the issue of what it would mean to redefine the word woman.

If you think about what a woman means, everyone knows (or knows and virtue signals).

But it actually doesn't matter what we all know, what matters is what the law says. If the law says a woman is no longer a member of a discrete biological sex class, then women no longer have sex based protections under EA2010, or any other law.

That may be the point that KB hasn't got to yet, and that it is this that we refer to by female erasure.

Or she may be dancing round the interview. At the end of the day, esp as the Graun are in the news for being transphobic, they were bound to ask. I'd be surprised if they didn't bring it up. It's like the Guardian Woke Test™️

Ladyfat · 20/08/2019 08:26

I think that’s a fair point MrsTodd, I think the vast majority of people know that transwomen aren’t real women, but allow a professional politeness, many of these women haven’t really thought through the full implications of a change of language.