If I'm a feminist but not radical or liberal, what am I?

[itsnotawatercat]

I'm gender critical, and radical feminism is much more up my street than liberal/intersectional feminism. (eg I think porn and prostitution are harmful to women).

But I don't agree with the rad fems who say all heterosexual relationships and motherhood are both, by nature harmful to women, and, ideally, best avoided.

Is there a branch of feminism that celebrates motherhood? And recognises that it is at least possible for a women to be (shock horror!) happy in - and not oppressed by - her individual heterosexual relationship, despite the societal background of misogyny?

(Did I just commit heresy?! )

I think it's just called being normal.

Motherhood is a hugely central part of feminism, surely?

Motherhood is a hugely central part of feminism, surely?

It should be. But do you think it is? I mean, in any style of feminism.

Yes it should be. Many/most women become mothers and even if they don't, the expectation that they might can have a big impact on their lives.

I don’t need to label my feminism as any particular strand personally. I’m not either liberal or radical, much closer to the latter but I don’t think a lot of it makes sense. You don’t need to be anything more than feminist.

I think it's called being a proper feminist.

But I don't agree with the rad fems who say all heterosexual relationships and motherhood are both, by nature harmful to women..

References? Links?

Otherwise you run the risk of people here thinking that you've just made that up.

Can't have that, can we?

References? Links?

Otherwise you run the risk of people here thinking that you've just made that up

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3652131-Is-there-a-place-in-radical-feminism-for-women-who-are-married-to-men

I agree with the OP. For years I avoided calling myself a feminist because, shock horror, not only was I married to a man and loved motherhood, I was actually a happy SAHM. Watching this thread.
The trans discussion is what brought me to this board.

I think it’s being someone who genuinely wants to support all women, who lives in the real world and does not run away from the hard questions.

Listen, please. Needing a very specific label for the particular permutation of your beliefs and opinions is precisely the mechanism that got us in this mess in the first place.

You don't have to agree with every single thing another feminist says to also be a feminist. You just need to put women as the point and centre of your feminism. How that manifests in your opinions is entirely up to you as a human female individual.

That's the point. It's not a club or a religion. You are allowed to have your own views, disagree, challenge others, change your mind about some things, whatever.

Exactly, floral. Do your feminism, centre women, act on the particular strands of it that fit your preferences and values, and worry less about labels.

Incidentally, OP, had you seen the recent rash of threads of “can I be a feminist if....?”. There is a definite theme on the board of wedge driving between feminists right now, and it’s likely that your thread will be read in the context of that.

I have my theories of why it’s happening. Maybe you had to live through the 80s/90s feminist scene and the whole “can you be a feminist without being a socialist” schisms...

I am simply a feminist.

You don't have to subscribe to any specific label to justify your stance. IMO it's much better to be a critical thinker rather than follow any particular ideology wholesale.
There will be many things that RadFem gets right, and others it gets wrong. Feminists should feel brave and confident enough to criticize and question and be skeptical of the ideas and arguments put forward.
Unquestioning support for X simply because that's the official RadFem stance doesn't make one much different from an unquestioning supporter of LibFem ideas.

Always be open to learning and change. Develop a strong inner ethical compass / conscience / whatever you want to call it. Examine and research and look for evidence and facts on any subject matter. Take your time to develop a nuanced viewpoint and opinion. This may mean that it's possible you might find yourself in conflict with some RadFem ideas or more ideologically pure stances. That's ok. It's good to think for yourself and be willing to reconsider your position if the facts support it.

If heterosexual relationships, motherhood etc bring you joy and fulfillment, go for it!
All human beings want to be loved, accepted and have a sense of purpose. There are so many ways to achieve this.
Women should make informed decisions with their eyes wide open. As long as they realise motherhood currently brings a lot of challenges and disadvantages in a patriarchal society, in addition to happiness, then they can be better prepared for it to minimise the risks.
Feminist movements should strive to improve the life of mothers and push for legislation that gives them better rights and protections. It's a slow process and probably requires cooperation with other types of political movements. In the meantime, women should weigh up the risks and benefits of various life altering decisions and choose what they feel more comfortable with as individuals.

What on Earth? About 95% of women are hetero. About 80% of women (in the UK) have one or more child.

Many married mums are rad. Or feminist, without being radical.

Neither sexuality or having babies is inherently harmful. The way the patriarchy can weaponise them against women is.

You’re fine OP.

I'm married to a man and have three DC. I'm not a SAHM now but I was when my DC were little. I love being a mum. I'm GC.

I'd just call myself a feminist.

A few radfems who are happy childfree lesbians who have political arguments against motherhood and heterosexual relationships, doesn't mean that you're not a radfem. They don't own the term. Its not a movement where everyone has exactly the same beliefs on everything

I'm a feminist because I centre women.

Over time, the more I have thought about it possibly thanks to Mumsnet this has made me more of a radical feminist.

But like masses of other women I'm straight. I don't have children but I think that motherhood is a central part of being a woman and we are oppressed by our biology - whether you have children or not most women will have experienced this, and v much so if you have.

Over and over you see women becoming more feminist when they have children and realising that their husband actually doesn't believe in 50:50, or his life hasn't changed in the way their's has, childcare options are shit, the support isn't there, what's happening to their pension and a million other things.

So I'd just say you are a woman!

Listen, please. Needing a very specific label for the particular permutation of your beliefs and opinions is precisely the mechanism that got us in this mess in the first place.

Yes. Just centre women and girls and you'll be fine, OP.

Purity politics is factional politics is wasted politics.

I'm probably closest to socialist feminism but don't label myself because I take what's useful from everywhere and discard what isn't.

If you are interested in matricentric feminism, OP, try looking into Vanessa Olorenshaw.

Here's her book, Liberating Motherhood:

www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01LR7MO2Q?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

If it is true that there have been waves of feminism, then mothers’ rights are the flotsam left behind on the ocean surface of patriarchy. For all the talk of women’s liberation, when it is predicated on liberation from motherhood, it is no liberation at all. Under twenty-first century capitalism, the bonds of motherhood are being replaced with binds to the market within wage slavery and ruthless individualism. Mothers are in bondage – and not in a 50 Shades way.

Olorenshaw is clear: When mothering is on our terms, it can be liberating. The time has come for a radical, bold and creative approach to the question of mothers, children and care.

And here is Claire Shrugged, blogging about meeting her:

sisteroutrider.wordpress.com/2018/05/18/race-place-and-feminist-space/

matricentric feminism

I read this as mathematic feminism at first Sounds interesting!

I'd never heard of radical feminism before tf became a thing. I suppose personally, I see radical and liberal as strands of feminism rather than a label for feminists if that makes sense.

I'm a feminist.

I find some theories of radical feminism interesting, because I believe that whilst feminism has enabled women to be allowed to participate in a society set up for men, it's still essentially set up for men and I think taking a radical, from the root, approach could make society better for everyone.

Neither sexuality or having babies is inherently harmful. The way the patriarchy can weaponise them against women is.

^ This.

References? Links?

Otherwise you run the risk of people here thinking that you've just made that up

It's in reference to feminists who call themselves rad fems, whom I've been spending time with recently, saying this to me and others. And being very clear that, in their eyes, this is an essential part of what radical feminism is about.

There have been a couple of threads on this recently, thanks LassOfFyvie for linking to one of them.

I'm probably closest to socialist feminism but don't label myself because I take what's useful from everywhere and discard what isn't.

This is my stance on it too.

I'm a Mum, in a relationship with a man, who is happy to be both a Mum and with DP.

I am a feminist. No factions, no solidarity with anyone but women and girls who don't have anything like equality, and until we do I'll keep being a feminist.

If some women choose to exclude me because of that, fair enough. That's up to them, but they're not going to change my mind.

Feminism is needed, particularly now, given the open and blatant attack on women's rights.

Turning on each other is unhelpful.

Can’t help but notice we’ve had tons of threads like:

Can I have long fair and be a feminist?
Can I wear an engagement ring and be a feminist?
Can I be married to a man and be a feminist?

Now call me a cynic, but these threads all look like rather goady - rolling out some tired stereotypes about feminists, radical or otherwise, being short haired man hating lesbians.

Listen, please. Needing a very specific label for the particular permutation of your beliefs and opinions is precisely the mechanism that got us in this mess in the first place.

You don't have to agree with every single thing another feminist says to also be a feminist. You just need to put women as the point and centre of your feminism. How that manifests in your opinions is entirely up to you as a human female individual.

That's the point. It's not a club or a religion. You are allowed to have your own views, disagree, challenge others, change your mind about some things, whatever.

I'm not looking for permission to believe what I believe! Or to subscribe to a set of views sanctioned by others.

But it's useful to have words for sets of ideas, so you can communicate about them to others, especially if they are sets of ideas you'd like to explore and learn more about.

e.g.

If you are interested in matricentric feminism, OP, try looking into Vanessa Olorenshaw

Thanks Lance Cleg, That's exactly the kind of thing I was looking for. I'd not heard of matricentric feminism, I can google it now. Thanks also for the book recommendation, that looks great. I see the forward's by Naomi Stadlen, I love her "What mothers do..." book, I've given it to a few new mothers.

Analysis is fine and necessary but when it hits the paralysis point it's useless. Continually asking what kind of feminist you are is really a distraction from being a feminist. I'm disturbed to see yet another of these threads and await to see who turns up.