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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

If I'm a feminist but not radical or liberal, what am I?

118 replies

itsnotawatercat · 04/08/2019 04:24

I'm gender critical, and radical feminism is much more up my street than liberal/intersectional feminism. (eg I think porn and prostitution are harmful to women).

But I don't agree with the rad fems who say all heterosexual relationships and motherhood are both, by nature harmful to women, and, ideally, best avoided.

Is there a branch of feminism that celebrates motherhood? And recognises that it is at least possible for a women to be (shock horror!) happy in - and not oppressed by - her individual heterosexual relationship, despite the societal background of misogyny?

(Did I just commit heresy?! Grin )

OP posts:
FloralBunting · 04/08/2019 15:09

Not disagreeing with you sakura. As I've repeatedly said, my initial concern was that the OP felt excluded by not having a label for her specific feminist views. I wanted her to know that bottom line, she was included by virtue of wanting to liberate and focus on women.

sakura184 · 04/08/2019 15:11

My interest in ideological purity also meant that the answer to "how do we end patriarchy?" resulted in me realizing that we can't. It's too far gone and too powerful.

The extremist fringe groups do have this awareness and understanding of this.

All we have available at our disposal is damage limitation. I do think feminist consciousness raising is important for women's well being and our ability to make women's lives more bearable in the here and now.

sackrifice · 04/08/2019 15:15

I'm definitely experiencing radical feminists saying I'm not a radical feminist if I don't believe that all heterosexual relationships are bad news for women by definition, or that motherhood is damaging and best avoided in an ideal world.

Who are these people saying this and what do you reply to them?

Surely if there were no mothers, there wouldn't 'be' a world, or any 'isms' or anyone at all?

Original poster
itsnotawatercat · 04/08/2019 15:25

Feminism is a political practice of fighting male supremacy in behalf of women as a class, including all the women you don't like, including all the women you don't want to be around, including all the women who used to be your best friends whom you don't want anything to do with anymore.

It doesn't matter who the individual women are. They all have the same vulnerability to rape, to battery, as children to incest. Poorer women have more vulnerability to prostitution, which is basically a form of sexual exploitation that is intolerable in an egalitarian society, which is the society we are fighting for. Andrea Dworkin

That's such a brilliant quote, isn't it.

OP posts:
Original poster
itsnotawatercat · 04/08/2019 15:28

Who are these people saying this and what do you reply to them?

The people saying this call themselves radical feminists, and I don't say anything really as:

  1. it's their rad fem space, they've made it clear they don't want to debate what they see as basic principles continuously. Fair enough.
  1. I don't have the language, and haven't done the reading to be able to adequately back up my thoughts on this, beyond "well, I think that..." or "in my personal experience... ". Hence, this thread.
OP posts:
Original poster
itsnotawatercat · 04/08/2019 15:32

Labels matter in all sorts of contexts though.

If I want to join a rad fem group, I can search for and find one easily. Same for an intersectional / lib fem group.

So, how do I search for groups of feminists who aren't radical feminists or intersectional feminists, but this sort of practical feminism we've been talking about here? Where do I start? What do I put into Google / the Facebook search bar?

OP posts:
Original poster
itsnotawatercat · 04/08/2019 15:35

Radical feminists examine the structure of society and want to make it fit for humans

Yes, I'd say that's where I fit. But Radical feminism also includes the analysis of feminists who have come to certain conclusions, doesn't it?

So what if you don't agree with those conclusions? Are there many branches of radical feminism then, with different conclusions as to how we make society fit for us?

OP posts:
Haworthia · 04/08/2019 15:36

Where are these radfem spaces denigrating heterosexual relationships and motherhood? Because I’ve been following radfems (on Twitter primarily) for a good couple of years and have never come across anyone with those views.

Original poster
itsnotawatercat · 04/08/2019 15:38

I've seen this in private Facebook groups. But I don't want to make this all about specific groups.

Are you saying radical feminism doesn't say that heterosexual relationships and motherhood are damaging to women in a patriarchal society, then?

OP posts:
FloralBunting · 04/08/2019 15:40

Well, I can't really help on the terms for Facebook group searches. The feminist groups I'm part of are things that have sprung up around specific issues, and I've no real idea if everyone in them agrees with everyone else which is why we tend to have conversations with each other.

Tbh, it functions the same way it does here, except usually without the unwelcome intrusion or centering of blokes, which is a dynamic change I thoroughly recommend. Different views, conversations, argument and discussion.

Haworthia · 04/08/2019 15:43

Are you saying radical feminism doesn't say that heterosexual relationships and motherhood are damaging to women in a patriarchal society, then?

Put it this way, if it’s a central tenet it’s news to me.

sackrifice · 04/08/2019 15:54

The people saying this call themselves radical feminists, and I don't say anything really as:

1. it's their rad fem space, they've made it clear they don't want to debate what they see as basic principles continuously. Fair enough.

2. I don't have the language, and haven't done the reading to be able to adequately back up my thoughts on this, beyond "well, I think that..." or "in my personal experience... ". Hence, this thread.

What is this Rad Fem space? Is it a forum, workshop, cafe?

Imnobody4 · 04/08/2019 16:06

There are 11 types of feminism. It's official!

Original poster
itsnotawatercat · 04/08/2019 16:52

"Is socialism the oppression of poor people?"

Oh dear Grin

I'm not sure these two know what the fuck they're on about have really done a lot of research on this.

OP posts:
FloralBunting · 04/08/2019 17:24

I just watched the video. I... I have no words...

sakura184 · 04/08/2019 18:10

@Imnobody4

I haven't watched the video, but I should imagine it's some kind of pernicious antifeminist attempt at belittling women's naming of feminist philosophy.

Best to stay away from anti feminist piss taking of women

AngelasAshes · 04/08/2019 18:16

I’m a bad feminist.

sakura184 · 04/08/2019 18:18

There are Facebook groups specifically for mothers who are radical feminist, or radical leaning, but disagree with the radical feminist view of motherhood and heterosexuality being a privilege.

There are also plenty of childfree lesbian radical feminists who disagree with the "mother privilege" and "het privilege" point of view, and who criticize both as patriarchal structures

I fall somewhere in the middle. I think motherhood is not intrinsically patriarchal, but I do think that I should have thought it through more carefully before becoming one

sakura184 · 04/08/2019 18:21

I’m a bad feminist.

You're arguing for men's right to sex as a human right on another thread, so yeah, not the best feminist

sakura184 · 04/08/2019 18:32

Just want to add that by "not thinking it through", I don't mean I regret having my children. More like, I had no idea how vulnerable it makes you in a patriarchy and I wish I'd been told. Had no idea that, still it traps you in relationships, prevents you from affording housing, and that childcare is often unaffordable. And because I had no idea how powerless mothers actually were, I thought I had a better chance of protecting my children from the ravages or patriarchy. Naive.

Imnobody4 · 04/08/2019 18:38

I haven't watched the video, but I should imagine it's some kind of pernicious antifeminist attempt at belittling women's naming of feminist philosophy.
Ah Sakura184 I fear you're wrong. They do check eco feminism which I thought was one of you're new discoveries.

FeministCat · 04/08/2019 18:51

I consider myself a radical feminist. Yet I am heterosexual and happily married to a man. I don’t have children by choice, because I felt it would be a bad choice for me. I do encourage all women to seriously think about their relationships and marriage - be it with women or men - as well as about their choice to have children or not. But I don’t see throwing out all heterosexual relations or motherhood as the fundamental “tenets” of radical feminism. In radical feminism groups I am in there are sometimes debates about these things, but many of those in the group I am most active in are straight or bisexual women and many are mothers or want to be mothers as well.

The one thing I don’t do is pull a NAMALT as despite all the wonderful things I know to be true about my Nigel, that is not the space for defending the individual man when we are talking about the class, and it is certainly not a place to centre men.

sakura184 · 04/08/2019 19:00

eco feminism which I thought was one of you're new discoveries.

I wouldn't subscribe to such a feminism as I believe outside of a patriarchy women would be able to run things more ecologically anyway- it would just be taken as a given

Gwynfluff · 04/08/2019 19:35

In the early 80s some feminists in the radical side of the second wave were very much arguing that women’s experience as mothers was a source of power (one very threatening to the patriarchy) and a set of nurturing values on which to found society.

Sara Ruddick most wholly expresses this view

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sara_Ruddick

Maniak · 04/08/2019 19:49

I fall somewhere in the middle. I think motherhood is not intrinsically patriarchal, but I do think that I should have thought it through more carefully before becoming one

It's impossible to "think it through" imo. First, because motherhood is impossible to imagine beforehand for some reason. I was the same. I had no idea what I was getting into. NOT because nobody was telling me. Mothers have been saying it loudly forever, but for some reason I just didn't hear it. And I'm not alone. You just can't tell pre-mothers anything.

I had an unpleasant experience a few days ago with a friend who has just given birth. She's younger than me and as she was talking about her gorgeous new baby she made it realily clear that one of her aims was not to become a loser "just a mother" like me. It just isn't her. She isn't that type at all. She is too intelligent for one thing. I mean, we've been there, right? We think we can escape somehow. But I've not seen a single mother escape. You can't choose your way out of it because nobody picks the lowly status in the first place. I'm not sure why it's so hard to see. Denial maybe?

The other thing is, we are all educated to become mothers. Not being a mother is seen as a big failure. My best friend doesn't want kids and, because she's a sensitive person, she's is all messed up about going against social expectations.

And anyway, the choice to be a mother is just a moment in time anyway and afterwards you're stuck with it. So it doesn't really help the majority of women to be told they can avoid oppression by going back in time and choosing differently. Thereby erasing your own children, I suppose.

So being a mother isn't really a free and informed choice imo. Maybe for some people idk, but none of that rhetoric makes sense to me.

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