Is there a place in radical feminism for women who are married to men?

[Namechangeforagamechange]

Just that really. I consider radfem views as most closely aligning with my own, but I am married with 2 children. After being subjected to the most hideous pile on in a radfem Facebook group about relationships with men, I'm left feeling a bit disillusioned.

I'm not libfem in any way, shape or form. So where do I go?

I'll admit I'm feeling a little sensitive atm, I chose to share traumatic experiences I haven't talked about for a long time and it's left me exhausted. I was accused of manipulating behaviour because I said dredging up those feelings had made me cry. I honestly cannot see how explaining that speaking about my own experiences has upset me is manipulating, but then a lot of what I said was taken out of context and twisted.

I will never feel comfortable in a 'Feminist' space where it's OK to tear down a woman when she is talking about past trauma. So where is MY place in feminism? Please, be kind.

Oh, and the other thing is, just because you have established a class doesn't mean the characteristic you are talking about is actually related to that class. That's another common fallacy in those kinds of discussions.

Oh, and the other thing is, just because you have established a class doesn't mean the characteristic you are talking about is actually related to that class. That's another common fallacy in those kinds of discussions.

No but you can generalize can't you.

And when it comes to forced impregnation through rape only one class of people can be the perpetrators and only one class of people can be the victims of such a crime

But I know what you mean. Just because men are on average stronger doesn't mean that all men are stronger than all women. You get very fit and tall women and very weak men etc.

JessicaWakefieldSV

God you'd be eaten alive in the radfem groups I know.

Oh gosh I’m so scared 🙈 I was in them when I was dumb enough to still be on FB, I’m still alive and I am quite capable of standing up to radfem bullies, or any bully, a lot of who were very racist to me. I’m not sure what your point is? I’m pretty sure they’d eat you alive too since you misrepresent radical feminism so much

No, that's not what I mean, really. The question of stereotypes is always there.

I mean you can identify something that happens, and try and link it to membership in a particular class. But it may not actually have anything to do with membership in that class.

For example, a number of years ago I read an "Everyday Sexism" article that suggested that a certain thing the writer had experienced was an example. Overwhelmingly however, the comments seemed to suggest that this thing was also commonly experienced by men, usually from women. In fact it seemed not to be something particular to the class of women at all, she simply hadn't realised how often it also happened to everyone else, she assumed that it was a male to female dynamic whereas in fact it was the sort of thing older people seemed to say to younger people.

I think many feminists shy away from it because once you do, it suggests that you can't in fact eradicate that class divide. The Marxist tradition tends to suggest that's what we should want and it's also what liberalism seems to want to tell us, so many people aren't willing to accept that state of affairs.

That's a really interesting point Goosefoot I'd never thought of it that way before.

Anyway yes I do think motherhood radicalizes women.

Completely agree sakura184
That's true for me in two ways.

First of all- I got a really good object lesson in the material reality of having and raising children and what that actually means for women. And, yes, that certainly made me sceptical of the idea that womanhood is a state you can identify into and out of!

Secondly- I started thinking about children's needs and how little men can be trusted to look out for them. And I realised that the more power women have, the better children are cared for and the more they are protected.

I don't just mean that in the sense of "Oh my Nigel's terrible at putting on a nappy" but much wider things: child poverty, the treatment of children in care homes, education. The more women are respected and trusted- the better these things work out for kids.

Class analysis = bullying

Or feminist analysis = bullying men and the women who love them

Goosefoot

The problem is class analysis is not really about sexism. It's about things like who has the money and power, who is killing whom. That book sounds a bit like a long winded "women do it too"

Most of us can differentiate between class analysis and bullying, Sakura. I don’t mistake the two myself, but as you don’t understand radical feminism properly, you may not be able to understand the difference between the two yourself. I do. I was referring to my experience in those groups, and it was in response to your ‘eaten alive’ phrase, which suggests a bullying mentality, yes. I am also able to use my own words and not just parrot others, as you did for days on end on another thread, using ‘radical feminism’ as a defence to any challenge. I encourage you to discuss one on one with other women, and listen to their words and their experiences directly. Wanting women to be ‘eaten alive’ by groups of extreme and narrow minded ‘radical feminists’ isn’t really helping the cause and is extremely divisive behaviour.

What I'm saying is you can't enter a radfem group defending marriage and then whine about bullying

I mean , you defending marriage, not the radfems: radfems hate marriage, they think it's prostitution. So it would be weird to defend such a patriarchal institution to radical feminist group, and then say they're bullying you when they tell you to take your patriarchal arse elsewhere

The problem is class analysis is not really about sexism. It's about things like who has the money and power, who is killing whom. That book sounds a bit like a long winded "women do it too"

No, that is not what class analysis is (nor is it about sexism). If you think so, that explains a lot of the problems you are having in these discussions. I think you need to learn more about class analysis, apart from feminism. It's really not anything goes. There are some fairly significant rules of logic it has to follow to be valid.

I mean they are called radical. Yeah yeah I know it means root. But people always thought it meant militant. Dworkin has the word "militant" on her book Heartbreak.

So you go into a group of militants, defending the enemy, and then accuse them of bullying you

That is what class analysis is about when it comes to feminism Goosefoot.

I understand class analysis as a random concept, I studied Marxism and Soviet politics at uni, I was a Marxist feminist before I became a radical feminist. I think some women become radfems via Marxism

What feminists did was apply Marxist analysis to women, and went further by saying when it comes to women it wasn't just material economic oppression but also it was interlinked with other oppression. We linked it to our biology. Then feminism went further and said "the personal is political" so what you were up to with your Nigel in the bedroom wasn't the private affair the state declared it to be. It was the political conditions of the female class

It sounds like you encountered some lesbian separatist extremists. I'm sorry you had that experience, it sounds horrible. I am straight and consider myself mostly aligned to radical rather than liberal feminism. If I met a good man I would consider getting married even though I do understand that marriage in a lot of ways can be oppressive. The way I see it is that in a patriarchy, all roles for women are oppressive, so we each just have to choose our best options.

You have just as much right to be here as anyone else. Maybe seek out other radical feminist groups on facebook too, I expect they vary a lot, but maybe only do that after taking a break. I've had some bad experiences in facebook groups in general, people can behave very badly on there and a kind of aggressive, out of control hive mind can emerge at times attacking anyone in its path.

I follow quite a few radical feminist pages on there and haven't seen the kind of extremism you've described so they do exist.

What I'm saying is you can't enter a radfem group defending marriage and then whine about bullying

You can if they are actually bullying as opposed to having a discussion with people holding different views.

I'm bisexual, married to a man. The abuse I've had from Twitter radfems for that - claiming that since I had a choice to be in a relationship with women, it's a truly egregious sin to have shacked up with a man. Also accused of faking my bisexuality to make myself a more attractive prospect to men, my obvious primary target.

I have no desire to be a radfem anyway, but even if I did there's clearly no room in that church for bisexual women in relationships with men. It doesn't surprise me at all that het women face the same exclusions.

Dworkin isn’t the only radical feminist and as far as I know doesn’t make the rules in all the radfem Facebook groups so the fact someone who likes to discuss and is interested in radical feminism, enters and at some point wants to challenge any extreme ends of radical feminism, is not inviting any attack by these ‘militants’ who think they own feminism. They don’t. Neither does Dworkin.

what I'm saying is, you need to pick the right group. Some groups are very militant, that's all. I'm excluded from them by virtue of the fact I'm a mother. Being a separatist I suppose "let's" me into some radfem spaces.

I'm happiest in groups where there is a mix of women : married, het , lesbian , single, mothers, childfree. Those ones are the best and most interesting.

I don't regard the militants as bullies, it's just their political stance. Like if you were a conservative why would you join a group for communists then accuse them of bullying of they didn't agree with you

you need to pick the right group

Or the groups need to be clear in their description they’re not simply radical feminism, but separatist and PS if you’re married you’re a prostitute. Full disclosure and all that.

You can if they are actually bullying as opposed to having a discussion with people holding different views.

I think militant radical feminists are highly aware that there are people in the world with different views to them.

What they are probably wondering is why you are in their space

I think you have severely misrepresented radical feminism.

Or the groups need to be clear in their description they’re not simply radical feminism, but separatist and PS if you’re married you’re a prostitute. Full disclosure and all that.

Can't argue with that, although I think many radfems would just take it as a given that members understood marriage to be a patriarchal institution. You can be a radfem and married, of course you can. But you can't be a radfem and defend the institution of marriage as a political stance