Is there a place in radical feminism for women who are married to men?

[Namechangeforagamechange]

Just that really. I consider radfem views as most closely aligning with my own, but I am married with 2 children. After being subjected to the most hideous pile on in a radfem Facebook group about relationships with men, I'm left feeling a bit disillusioned.

I'm not libfem in any way, shape or form. So where do I go?

I'll admit I'm feeling a little sensitive atm, I chose to share traumatic experiences I haven't talked about for a long time and it's left me exhausted. I was accused of manipulating behaviour because I said dredging up those feelings had made me cry. I honestly cannot see how explaining that speaking about my own experiences has upset me is manipulating, but then a lot of what I said was taken out of context and twisted.

I will never feel comfortable in a 'Feminist' space where it's OK to tear down a woman when she is talking about past trauma. So where is MY place in feminism? Please, be kind.

But do radfem need to trap people into saying things and pounce on them. The fact remains that many women do have happy and supportive relationships with men whether they like it or not. That's no reason to round on someone so they feel they have to leave a discussion. That's how you end up with an echo chamber.

I am also married and align myself most closely with radical feminism. I think radfem analyses of marriage hold water, in that it is an institution created for the control of women, and the family becomes a microcosm of the patriarchy used to bring up children in the gender roles appropriate to the patriarchy.

However, not getting married leaves us open to financial ruin for ourselves and our children which is partially why so many of us still do it while sacking off various traditions and challenging the family as a microcosm of patriarchy (ie by demonstrating an equitable partnership and challenging gender roles). This doesn't mean I'm happy with the institution and personally think common-law marriage needs to be recognised, but at this point in history marriage for me was the best choice.

But do radfem need to trap people into saying things and pounce on them

No, I think the thread that was started in the OPs radfem group was phrased incorrectly.
The OP inevitably "not my Nigelled" and was attacked for it.

It should have been a discussion about what material conditions would women need in order to consider relationships with men as free and equal. And if women had those conditions would they still live with men.
Something like that

However, not getting married leaves us open to financial ruin for ourselves

Absolutely. That is the patriarchal design. That's why I don't think any right thinking feminist would judge women for getting married.

Just like no right thinking radfem would judge or moralize at a prostitute. Marriage and prostitution are the end result of our material /economic oppression

How is it not puritanical when you are talking about marriage being prostitution?

Do enlighten me.

Actually the one thread hasn’t gone - thought it had. So been back and reread it.
And I stand by my initial interpretation.

The flounce thread is the one that has gone.

Stupid reasonable rules about screenshots or I could share with y’all. Not that I’d share anyway, but you know...

@sakura184 yes! It's something we still need to do, but doesn't mean we can't fight from within.

@RedToothBrush I read that as both marriage and prostitution representing where we end up because of oppression rather than them being the same thing, and that because they're attributable to the patriarchy we should be in solidarity...

There isn’t just notmynigelling, I’ve just spotted “women do it too” as well.

Responses are plain speaking and refer to theory, and are not nasty in any way.

There was a woman explaining the “son potential abuser” issue who explicitly posted that she herself has sons and how upsetting the thought is. But that it being upsetting doesn’t make it any less true.

@BeyondDangerousTshirts but it's not likely. Most men aren't abusers (don't care if you complain about NAMLT). Encouraging women to fear their own children is plain madness and doesn't strike me as particularly feminist in the way I understand it. It smacks of the aim being literal separatism which is mad for all manner of reasons.
Yes, more likely than your daughter on a population level of looking at statistics but the reality is a lot more multi-faceted than that. If it wasn't we would have solved these issues already.

You see I think it's rather derogatory to say women are prostitutes for being married.

And it rather minimises the experiences of actual prostitutes.

And really is a snobby way at looking at married women as slaves who don't even realise it whilst being superior to that.

It's one thing to say you think marriage as an institution doesn't serve women or their interests well.

It's another to phrase it in such language which elevates anyone who rejects marriage for whatever reason.

The linguistics matter.

As a view I don't have a problem with saying that marriage is bad for women. It's the phrasing that I find not just extreme but designed to be deliberately shock and be offensive.

@RedToothBrush yes this. I personally have no issue with the institution of marriage. But I also don't go round feeling superior to people who do. I would happily discuss why I have no problem with it without trying to exclude people who disagree. Everyone suffers inside an echo chamber.

Grammar you can NAMALT as much as you want here, should you choose to. This isn’t a radfem Facebook group that you joined because your views align with RF theory.

I saw that the radical feminists were the only ones adamant that we had to fight trans issues and that's why I gave up my socialist based feminism and gravitated towards the extremists
And on another thread you were arguing that there were far more important issues than trans.

Catching up on thread - excellent post by bd67th at 00.43, entirely agree

*No, I think the thread that was started in the OPs radfem group was phrased incorrectly.
The OP inevitably "not my Nigelled" and was attacked for it.

It should have been a discussion about what material conditions would women need in order to consider relationships with men as free and equal. And if women had those conditions would they still live with men.
Something like that*

Absolutely agree with this. It would have been a vey different discussion if it had been posed like that.
OP shouldn't be blamed for responding to the question as asked, though.

You see I think it's rather derogatory to say women are prostitutes for being married.

Rather derogatory? I would say that's an understatement!

That is not my nigelling though, even by your interpretation of it?

I don't think so. I always understood "NMNing" to describe someone derailing a discussion of "men as a class"tm with some irelevant defence of their own man.

If someone asks you directly "Is it your Nigel?" I think you'd be within your rights to say "no" if thats your honest opinion.

I agree with pp that it isnt a particularly productive conversation but i think you have to blame the framing of the discussion for that. Not the response of one particular poster.

I've had to skip ahead from @bd67th s post at 00.45 to say bloody hell, I wish I hadn't read that. It's a bit bleak!

But thank you. Thank you BD67th.

RedToothBrush your last comment was spot on

And on another thread you were arguing that there were far more important issues than trans.

Right?! Ha ha

What a brilliant thread you have provoked, @Namechangeforagamechange !

I'm mainly a lurker, no education in feminism- just what I've picked up from FWR.

All you well read people who'll argue while I read are doing a brilliant job of educating people like me.

Thank you.

There seems to be a generation divide as more than a third (35%) of over 65s think that in most cases it isn’t rape to have non-consenting sex with your wife or partner, compared to just 16% of 16-24s. Just over four in ten (42%) over 65s generally think that in most cases if a woman changes her mind halfway through but the sex continues, it isn’t rape. This is compared with just 22% of the 25-49s.
And the results are from men and women. So I think there is cause for optimism about how attitudes can change.

The thread has either gone now or my phone is just being stupid, so I can’t get a direct quote, but the question was along the lines of “is a good het relationship possible”, not “please come and tell us about your het relationship”. I don’t view those as the same question.