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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is there a place in radical feminism for women who are married to men?

748 replies

Namechangeforagamechange · 30/07/2019 19:51

Just that really. I consider radfem views as most closely aligning with my own, but I am married with 2 children. After being subjected to the most hideous pile on in a radfem Facebook group about relationships with men, I'm left feeling a bit disillusioned.

I'm not libfem in any way, shape or form. So where do I go?

I'll admit I'm feeling a little sensitive atm, I chose to share traumatic experiences I haven't talked about for a long time and it's left me exhausted. I was accused of manipulating behaviour because I said dredging up those feelings had made me cry. I honestly cannot see how explaining that speaking about my own experiences has upset me is manipulating, but then a lot of what I said was taken out of context and twisted.

I will never feel comfortable in a 'Feminist' space where it's OK to tear down a woman when she is talking about past trauma. So where is MY place in feminism? Please, be kind.

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Maniak · 08/08/2019 01:03

So the ideal would be to have "marriages" that keep all the benefits of co parenting but somehow dismantle the risk of violence. I don't see why that shouldn't be possible, in theory.

Maniak · 08/08/2019 01:08

Although I don't have any ideas about how to do it so maybe it's not possible.

sakura184 · 08/08/2019 01:08

So the ideal would be to have "marriages" that keep all the benefits of co parenting but somehow dismantle the risk of violence. I don't see why that shouldn't be possible, in theory.

I think if there was a revolution and women still wanted to live with men, in theory that would be fine. I just personally don't think we'd see much of it.

Goosefoot · 08/08/2019 02:00

Um, being a feminist isn't predicated on believing things that are false. You do not have to believe women are different than they really are. There is nothing inherent in feminism that says it has to have the kinds of goals you are suggesting.

And I think you will find that no, every woman does not believe in nuclear disarmament. Where did you get that idea?

Maniak · 08/08/2019 02:38

@goosefoot, she said every feminist not every woman.

JessicaWakefieldSV · 08/08/2019 07:17

You said, "this is part of our battle, getting mothers to stop defending their sons abusive behaviour." So what do you mean - why is this an important battle for feminism?

Because part of the problem we have is stopping abusive men. Anyone here suggesting women have absolutely no responsibility is, frankly, utterly ridiculous.

Like most of this thread.

Namechangeforagamechange · 08/08/2019 09:46

Something else I said on the group was hugely picked apart, and I'd be interested to know others perspective on it.

I mentioned that if my son turned out to be a rapist or abuser, I'd feel that I'd failed in my job as his mother. This was met with cries of 'misogyny' and 'women blaming'. But when you consider that his father was a rapist and abuser, and for a significant portion of my sons life I was a single parent, I think it's only fair that if he turned out to be that way inclined, I would have to take some blame for that. My failure to shield him from his father's actions is a tricky issue, because I was in an abusive relationship that I couldn't find a way out of. I shielded my children as much as I could, and felt the full force of my ex's violence and aggression in order to protect them. But in the subsequent years, when I was on my own, I made sure I did everything in my power to let them know that their fathers behaviour was not OK. I'd even go as far as saying that my choice to marry a good man, who values me and treats me with kindness and respect, is part of that. It's showing my children, that (and I'm sorry to throw it in, but it's relevant) NAMALT. I don't want either of my children growing up to think that male violence is an inevitability. For my son to think it's the only path he can take, and for my daughter to accept it within her own relationships.

So is it woman blaming and misogynistic to say that if my son turned out to be a rapist or abuser, that I should accept some responsibility? I'm not saying it would be entirely my fault, and I'm not for one second saying that all abusers should blame their mother. Some men, for one reason or another, seem to be biologically predisposed to violence. My ex's mother was a very violent woman herself, as was his father. He grew up surrounded by abuse. My dad also grew up with a violent father, but his mother was exactly the opposite. And my dad was the kindest, most gentle man I have ever known, although his father's violence affected him, he chose to be the opposite kind of husband and father.

If you come from the viewpoint that all male children are 'inevitable rapists or oppressors of women' then of course environmental factors can't be taken into account. But if you don't agree with that, then it stands to reason that their upbringing has a huge impact on whether they grow up to become abusers or not.

I'm fully aware that my view might be skewed somewhat. I still blame myself, to some extent, for staying with their father so long. There came a time when I realised it was not a safe or healthy relationship, when I was around 20, and I had to leave. But it took me a good 4 years to finally do it. In that 4 years, his violence escalated significantly, presumably because I had been pregnant/given birth. Before the DCs were born, it was mostly sexual/emotional abuse. After, it became physical and financial too. But still I stayed, because I truly believed I could help him. I thought that if I loved him enough, if I showed him all the affection his mother denied him, that he could change. I suffered greatly for that belief, and I feel sad that I lost 10 years of my life trying to fix something that I hadn't broken. I was 14 when I first met him, he was 18. DD is nearly 13, and she is still very much a child, as was I. These days I try not to think too much about it, but sometimes I do look back and mourn the loss of part of my childhood.

I've rambled on a bit here, I'm sort of thinking out loud, but what I'm trying to say is if my son turned out to be an abuser I would blame myself, and I'm fully prepared to be told that's a skewed way of thinking.

OP posts:
Namechangeforagamechange · 08/08/2019 09:49

Oh wow, I rambled on a lot. It's something that's been playing on my mind though, and I'd appreciate others opinions on it.

OP posts:
JessicaWakefieldSV · 08/08/2019 10:14

I think there’s a difference between ‘blaming’, and looking at the entire picture and saying, I have some responsibility here. As a parent, I have felt that guilt thing too, I’m sure most of us do. When it’s something serious, it can be even harder to resist the blame urge. It’s not about that. Ultimately every adult is responsible for their actions. But that’s not to say influential factors, major or minor, haven’t contributed. In the case of young boys abusing, then parental influence or lack of, plays a huge part and it’s a mistake not to address that. This is a parenting site, so I wouldn’t expect it to be controversial to say parents, including mothers, influence who their children turn out to be. Otherwise, what the hell are we doing? They doesn’t mean: mothers are to blame. Or indeed: fathers are to blame. That’s far too simplistic. We do have an issue with mothers excusing their sons behaviours, it’s much discussed on this site in fact. Again, that shouldn’t be controversial. That’s not a: mothers are evil and more responsible, assessment. At all.
I don’t think it helps though, for mothers to carry guilt around as if it’s all their fault. That’s a terrible burden and it’s not accurate. Namechange I think it’s admirable to take your role seriously and to consider and reflect on your parenting. I am sorry you suffered so much, please don’t beat yourself up for staying, we know how affected emotionally victims of abuse are and you aren’t expected to react perfectly. My mother stayed for 26 years, even after I was beaten and thrown out as a girl. I absolutely carry no resentment towards her for that, I understand that she had been so abused her self worth and strength were not there at that time. I have tremendous empathy for my mother, her life has been very difficult. I also do not blame her for the fact my brother went on to be an abuser, both his parents and many many other factors contributed to his entitlement and disturbed thinking. What I do hold her accountable for, is excusing his behaviour and not having any empathy for the woman he assaulted. He continues to be an angry, entitled man and went on to bully my daughter and I, a behaviour I think will never leave him because he had so many around him support him and excuse him. Any time I questioned his behaviour, my mother would berate me- still does.

Life is messy and complex and around this, there are no simple explanations or answers. But honesty, that is crucial.

Sending you Flowers

sakura184 · 08/08/2019 11:02

@goosefoot, she said every feminist not every woman.

Exactly. If you believe nuclear war and a fully armed military is basically an ok thing ( as most men obviously do, as they're in charge) you definitely can't be a radical feminist.

sakura184 · 08/08/2019 11:08

*Because part of the problem we have is stopping abusive men. Anyone here suggesting women have absolutely no responsibility is, frankly, utterly ridiculous.

Like most of this thread.*

Honestly, I think the mother hate coming from the fringe groups is a measure of women's powerlessness: if we can just get women to do xyz. If mothers could just get their shit together.

Fathers obviously are neatly left off the hook. Even though fathers have all the power collectively , to bring about a better world. But they won't.

I think it basically leads back to the fact that if you take on men , you're going to end up dead or locked up. And women can't be arsed with that, and don't have time for it.

And it will all be for nothing anyway because they're so powerful and seem to be getting more powerful by the generation, if we are to judge their weapons of mass destruction as any measure of their control.

Blaming an oppressed group for being oppressed hasn't just happened with women if I recall.

sakura184 · 08/08/2019 11:10

*Anyone here suggesting women have absolutely no responsibility is, frankly, utterly ridiculous.

Like most of this thread.*

JessicaWakefieldSV I find your constant attempts to silence what is actually a very interesting conversation not very feminist. You're like the thought police

sakura184 · 08/08/2019 11:17

So is it woman blaming and misogynistic to say that if my son turned out to be a rapist or abuser, that I should accept some responsibility?*

The fringe groups would say you shouldn't have had him and insofar as you did then it is your responsibility. They think that of all mothers.
I think they should stay away from women's bodies to be honest, and find another enemy. Pick any other enemy they like.

Other than that I've argued that it is indeed misogynistic to blame the mother for the outcome of her child in a patriarchy. All patriarchal institutions blame the mother, it is entrenched patriarchal ideology. If they got rid of porn, misogynistic tv content which begins with cartoons, sexism in schools and in society at large, I could go on.. then maybe the mother would stand a chance on how she could influence her child.

JessicaWakefieldSV · 08/08/2019 11:18

Fathers obviously are neatly left off the hook

Nobody said that. You take one thing people say and then make a totally different conclusion.

Imnobody4 · 08/08/2019 11:18

Life is messy and complex and around this, there are no simple explanations or answers. But honesty, that is crucial.
This is so true.
I don't understand how anyone can deny the significance of a child's upbringing. The problem is confusing influence with power. Mother's don't have absolute power to write the future but they certainly have influence.
I really don't understand the way some feminists are behaving, in fact I find it scary. I can't help but feel it's social media, they surely wouldn't behave that way IRL but it looks like social media is all we have. This is why I appreciate Mumsnet.

JessicaWakefieldSV · 08/08/2019 11:19

JessicaWakefieldSV I find your constant attempts to silence what is actually a very interesting conversation not very feminist. You're like the thought police

Nobody is silencing anyone here. I’m criticising your opinions. I really don’t care what you think is feminist, as I don’t think you are one either and are just an extremist. So we’re all good. I don’t value your opinions on feminism, and you don’t value mine. So let’s stop going round in circles.

sakura184 · 08/08/2019 11:19

Anyway I don't blame women for trying to silence feminists; men are very dangerous and the last thing you want to do is draw their attention.
I suspect quite a few men are reading this thread though it's interesting to me they haven't interjected as they normally do. Hopefully it's because they're taken aback that women have organized groups all over the place and that women are deadly serious that they've had enough of their shit

sakura184 · 08/08/2019 11:21

No you said the thread was stupid. That's different to criticizing someone's opinion. It's very silencing, like the thread should be deleted or something. And one of my threads actually was deleted by some snitch running off to mumsnet towers

JessicaWakefieldSV · 08/08/2019 11:22

Other than that I've argued that it is indeed misogynistic to blame the mother for the outcome of her child in a patriarchy.

That’s good I haven’t done that then. Your inability to read what’s been said and understand the different factors involved in abuse is quite shocking.

Again.

NOBODY HERE SAID THEY BLAME MOTHERS.

I shouted because I’m hoping you’ll finally get it. I doubt it though, as you keep persisting in your version of other people’s intentions.

JessicaWakefieldSV · 08/08/2019 11:25

No you said the thread was stupid

Most of it is, most of the comments are stupid. It’s not silencing. Nobody has silenced you, you’ve DOMINATED this and other threads by intentionally going round in circles and intentionally, repeatedly misrepresenting others... ohhh no, you didn’t mean that, you meant this! Even if you said you didn’t, you do! You hate women!...

I’ll keep calling out nonsense and I don’t need your permission either. Why are YOU trying to silence ME.

sakura184 · 08/08/2019 11:27

Can you stop making this about me and either engage with or ignore my points.

Longlongsummer · 08/08/2019 11:29

Fathers obviously are neatly left off the hook. Even though fathers have all the power collectively , to bring about a better world. But they won't.

That’s so true. Perhaps the OP is in a clear example of blame the women. Not that we as women aren’t part of the problem. We clearly are. However I’m sick of women being blamed by marrying or having children. And the extreme. It’s what a lot of women hold up as feminism too - ‘I won’t get involved with those crazy extreme feminists’ - that’s what many women get turned off by.

Much effective feminism for me is when it starts closer to what women and men can handle - change is slow. M

sakura184 · 08/08/2019 11:30

Like repeatedly calling me , and I quote, disgusting for voicing what is basically a radical feminist argument. Telling me I am abhorred by basically everyone (which you said down below ) and yet when I said I thought I was hated here I was also told I had delusions of grandeur. Well which is it, it can't be both.

This is all very silencing. I mean I'm used to it. This is not my first rodeo:

Imnobody4 · 08/08/2019 11:30

Some people on this thread say what about the father etc etc. But I think the
grown up, dignified thing to do is take responsibility for your own actions. Nobody has right to blame mothers. Nobody has the right to deny someone their self worth by reducing them to nothing but a victim. No matter how dire your position you still have your own humanity, accounts from the concentration camps tell us that. To constantly blame the patriarchy for messy human interactions is infantile, the decent people do their best despite the patriarchy.

Namechangeforagamechange · 08/08/2019 11:30

I didnt take what JessicaWakefieldSV said as trying to silence anyone. She was quite rightly commenting on how ridiculous this thread has become. And Sakura you have dominated the thread, and from I've seen, twisted others comments into something entirely different. You, coincidentally or not, remind me of somebody else I came across a week ago Hmm

As I said before, there has been a lot of intelligent debate, and I'm grateful to the posters who have voiced their opinions in an intelligent manner. But it seems some posters are hell bent on shouting others down and trying to drown out the debate with entirely ridiculous posts.

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