Is there a place in radical feminism for women who are married to men?

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Just that really. I consider radfem views as most closely aligning with my own, but I am married with 2 children. After being subjected to the most hideous pile on in a radfem Facebook group about relationships with men, I'm left feeling a bit disillusioned.

I'm not libfem in any way, shape or form. So where do I go?

I'll admit I'm feeling a little sensitive atm, I chose to share traumatic experiences I haven't talked about for a long time and it's left me exhausted. I was accused of manipulating behaviour because I said dredging up those feelings had made me cry. I honestly cannot see how explaining that speaking about my own experiences has upset me is manipulating, but then a lot of what I said was taken out of context and twisted.

I will never feel comfortable in a 'Feminist' space where it's OK to tear down a woman when she is talking about past trauma. So where is MY place in feminism? Please, be kind.

Like if I was going to hire a sex worker, I can't even imagine it. What would I even ask him to do? How could I like sex if the man's not into it. It's inconceivable. But the other way round, men find it easy to imagine. Is that my own failure of imagination? Or is it just that I've been groomed my whole life to think of male centred sex?

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You mean action like this.

@imnobody4 yes! Thank you!

It's almost like it's only men who are allowed activism, extremism, militancy and ideological purity. Women have to be nice to everyone

RedToothBrush thank you for your brilliant refutation at 15.31 today of this ridiculous comment.

My problem with radical feminism is that it's not radical enough. If it had motherhood as an assumed default for women, then there would be demand for a complete economic overhaul. That's what I want to see

That's an excellent point @Maniak . It's as though there is no analysis of the fact that rightly or wrongly motherhood is the default for women. Just like PIV , the element of choice is therefore suspect.

Avoiding the fact that motherhood is the default in your feminist analysis makes it sound like you were just a particularly clever feminist to avoid it, like a woman might argue "not my Nigel" .

Like men allow a few tokens in power, they allow a few lesbians, a few spinsters and celibate women, a few childfree by choice.

Now if childfree by choice and no PIV started becoming the default for women men would kick up the biggest stink. And those clever women who managed to avoid the default might just have found themselves pregnant or prostituted.

It doesn't mean we shouldn't theorize whether it's ethical to bring children into a patriarchy. It's fair enough to analyze this.

Like if I was going to hire a sex worker, I can't even imagine it. What would I even ask him to do? How could I like sex if the man's not into it. It's inconceivable

Totally. Knowing the person was in no way into you. You'd feel so ridiculous, wouldn't you? Like rehearsing a play or something.

But I think men like that, they like that she doesn't want it.

But I think men like that, they like that she doesn't want it.

Not the case from those punter links that get posted. Usually they give a negative review if "it seemed like she wasn't into it". I wonder why.

*But it's really NOT okay not to like it. Of course, the rhetoric is that it's okay to like or not like anything. But most men it's PIV or nothing. Or at least penis in some orifice. Has to be. Otherwise it's not sex and as some pp said, many men would leave a relationship if they're not getting sex.

To me that's the value of the radical ideology. What if I wanted sex centred around my own pleasure and refused penetration? Well, it's unthinkable in the context of a relationship with a man. It's either refusal or penetration sex. But the other way round, sex that gives only men orgasms is commonplace. So why?*

It's really not.
What I don't understand is why it's not acceptable to enjoy sexual interaction with men without PIV. It's so weird and very telling that this is called "foreplay" because that suggests it must be a lead up to the main event whereas I always thought the main event was rubbish by comparison.

But women who expect this are called "cockteasers" whom it's acceptable to rape. Because in sexual interactions with men PIV is often part of the expectations.

Not the case from those punter links that get posted. Usually they give a negative review if "it seemed like she wasn't into it". I wonder why.

I think you're giving them too much credit.. oh they know she's not into it. What he's saying is, she wasn't good enough at acting, and he'll punish her for that by leaving a bad review.

You're still not getting the idea that women like PIV, sakura.
If I dated a man that wasn't interested in PIV, I'd find another.
If DH went off PIV (as many do, see relationships), I'd be very unhappy and it would ruin our marriage.
Most women are the same.
Can't you accept you are a special case?

I read an article written by a woman about the girlfriend experience. I think she was an ex prostitute and when she was in the game the GFE didn't exist. It was a relatively new thing when she wrote the article.

She said the GFE was men taking their misogyny to new heights. They know the woman doesn't like them, isn't into them. And in the past this was fine. But now men's expectations of prostitutes keep increasing and changing. So that not only she now has to pretend to like sex but you can also hire her for some extended period of time wherein she has to act that she likes spending time with him.

You're still not getting the idea that women like PIV, sakura.

No I do get that. Totally get it.

TBH I wouldn't really miss the foreplay element much. My husband would, but I find it a bother most of the time and it seems to keep me from sleeping later.

" it should be acceptable to enjoy sex with men without PIV" is not the same thing as "all women don't like PIV"

There is a type of feminism that fights for women's right to have PIV. It's just not radical feminism that's all. Radical feminism is about women's right not to

Also, I've never said I haven't enjoyed PIV.

But I'm highly suspicious if a woman says she's enjoyed every single PIV experience she's ever had.

And I suppose the argument is also, if PIV can be shit some of the time, even for women who love it, then is it even worth it at all, considering the consequences?

But none of this matters, because it looks like women can't avoid it. That's why it's so terrible when states in America pass anti abortion laws. It's terrible because women cannot avoid PIV and everyone knows this

Sakura184
There is a type of feminism that fights for women's right to have PIV. It's just not radical feminism that's all. Radical feminism is about women's right not to
Ffs there is no feminism that fights for women to have either a right or no right to PIV. There is no human right to sex and PIV sex without consent is rape. Your way of speaking about sex repulses me. It's all about you when no one is trying to force you to do anything you don't want.

RedToothBrush

"You see I think it's rather derogatory to say women are prostitutes for being married.

And it rather minimises the experiences of actual prostitutes."

So right, and suggesting all PIV sex is rape is hugely insulting to genuine victims of rape.

StopThePlanet I am so sorry for your experience. I should say survivors of rape.

But none of this matters, because it looks like women can't avoid it. That's why it's so terrible when states in America pass anti abortion laws. It's terrible because women cannot avoid PIV and everyone knows this

Yes! It's this weird idea of choice. We all have a choice as individuals. But as a class, we don't. I always get tangled up in that choice idea. I know it's not right, but I can't explain why not.

The but I don't get, which has bbeen mentioned here is that all men benefit from The patriarchy. Yet it is also often said the patriarchy hurts men and boys too.

So how can those both be true?

The bit...

The but I don't get, which has bbeen mentioned here is that all men benefit from The patriarchy. Yet it is also often said the patriarchy hurts men and boys too.

So how can those both be true?

Oh, easily. Lots of things in life are double-edged swords, so to speak. Take cars- they benefit people massively, enable them much greater choice about where to live, keep in touch with family etc. Also cause massive pollution and climate change, increases sedentary lifestyles and thus obesity and related diseases...

So, the patriarchy benefits men by providing a world geared towards their needs. However, it also harms men, by using reductive stereotypes of 'masculinity' and 'femininity' etc. It cuts both ways.

But I'm highly suspicious if a woman says she's enjoyed every single PIV experience she's ever had.

Well, that's totally different, and irrelevant.
I like meals, but I haven't enjoyed every single one I've had.
This holds true for men as well.
And on balance it is worth it for most women.