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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is there a place in radical feminism for women who are married to men?

748 replies

Namechangeforagamechange · 30/07/2019 19:51

Just that really. I consider radfem views as most closely aligning with my own, but I am married with 2 children. After being subjected to the most hideous pile on in a radfem Facebook group about relationships with men, I'm left feeling a bit disillusioned.

I'm not libfem in any way, shape or form. So where do I go?

I'll admit I'm feeling a little sensitive atm, I chose to share traumatic experiences I haven't talked about for a long time and it's left me exhausted. I was accused of manipulating behaviour because I said dredging up those feelings had made me cry. I honestly cannot see how explaining that speaking about my own experiences has upset me is manipulating, but then a lot of what I said was taken out of context and twisted.

I will never feel comfortable in a 'Feminist' space where it's OK to tear down a woman when she is talking about past trauma. So where is MY place in feminism? Please, be kind.

OP posts:
sakura184 · 02/08/2019 15:47

Thing is, rape aside, any woman can be celibate without any repercusions*

No I argue there are massive repercussions for choosing to be celibate. And you can only do it if you have some sort of economic back up, like a good job. How many women have that? Hardly any

sakura184 · 02/08/2019 15:49

This reply has been deleted

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sakura184 · 02/08/2019 15:51

. I know a ton of single women, they live their lives without ever having to have sex

I'm guessing you're younger than me. I'm 38. Women my age have children and are stuck. I actually think it's important for me to write about this as a warning to younger women - about just how impossible it often is to extricate yourself from a relationship once you have a child. Some manage to leave. Plenty others don't because they can't

deydododatdodontdeydo · 02/08/2019 15:57

Some are younger, some are older.
Plenty of them are divorced with kids.
A couple are widowed in their 40s and haven't found anyone else yet (they are looking).

deydododatdodontdeydo · 02/08/2019 15:57

By the way, I'm older than you by 7 years.

sakura184 · 02/08/2019 16:01

I'm not really arguing that women under patriarchy don't want to live with men. I'm arguing that they probably wouldn't want to outside a patriarchy , and I'm guessing this to be the case, because of all the patriarchal conditions that give rise to making it virtually impossible for women to live alone. There is a link on another thread about how unaffordable housing is for women on their wage. Factor in children and it's even harder. I left my husband for 18 months but had to go back to him as I couldn't afford the childcare. That's just one anecdote

sakura184 · 02/08/2019 16:05

"But women want men" and "but women want PIV" , while being valid points, are arguably not radical feminist. They may be another version of feminism but they're definitely not radical feminist . Maybe some version of liberal feminism? I don't know. Or not even feminism at all? I mean that's fine too of course. Radical feminism is what it is, nobody is asking anyone to agree. In fact radfems are aware most of the world disagrees with them

deydododatdodontdeydo · 02/08/2019 16:21

"But women want men" and "but women want PIV" , while being valid points, are arguably not radical feminist.

True, but radical feminists are then faced with not only being opposed to men, but also being opposed to most women. And you'll end up in a no win scenario where you're trying to fight for something that almost everyone doesn't want.

deydododatdodontdeydo · 02/08/2019 16:23

virtually impossible for women to live alone.

I'd be interested to know the numbers of women that live alone because in my experience it can't be virtually impossible, simply because so many manage it!

RedToothBrush · 02/08/2019 16:25

but I argue that equating discussions of PIV and maybe antinatalism with jihadi retribution or the Khmer Rouge or Hitler is misogynistic.

You do that then. I just think its authoritarianism which doesn't really serve women well, in pretty much any form it manifests.

When women think or speak up against patriarchy men perceive this as "literal violence". That is because only men are allowed to be literally violent. And women must not even be allowed to speak.

No one is silencing you. You are just being challenged about extreme views and word salad, which you don't like and because you don't have an adequate response you are restorting to playing the victim - this in a persecution complex.

You've made really quite offensive remarks at times about rape and prostitution which really have minimised them, but this is OK cos it fits your ideology, and we are all just supposed to suck it up and agree?

Er No. Thats not how it works.

You don't get away with that double standard by saying 'wah wah I'm being picked on and silenced'.

If you are going to say those things and continue to stand by them, then people will challenge them if they think they are extreme, offensive and ask you to explain them.

Asking questions is not silencing. This is the process of encouraging critical examination and thought.

This idea that asking questioning is silencing, is an authoritarian / cult like theme btw - which is the point that has been made several times.

You are being engaged with and asked to reason with in debate - which because you've got caught in this rigid mind set makes you feel uncomfortable. Thats your cognitive dissonance kicking in and telling you to shut down as if you face it, you have to think about that cognitive dissonance. Thats what happens if you've been caught up in a ideological cult.

I refer to exhib A:
carm.org/signs-practices-of-a-cult

People trying to engage with you and asking questions is the very opposite of being silenced. You've got an opportunity to share and spread your ideas, promoting them by making a good argument which might not persuade me, but might persuade an onlooker.

Others talking to you actively enables that process.

I have been actively trying to get you out of your bubble of thought and to engage your ideas with others rather than silence you, by making the point that when you regress to certain phrases, people immediately switch off. I'm stated that the ideas behind them, have value and whilst I might not agree with them, its good to debate them.

This is how critical thinking evolves and flourishes.

I have repeatedly said that effective communication and sharing of ideas relies on them being accessable and that we should encourage this to engage with as many people as possible, rather than retreating into self created echo chambers which display a persecution complex as if in a cult.

Its funny - when ideas are shared in this way, it opens up debate - and thats been shown in places on this very thread.

Now, if you want to whine about being a victim thats really up to you, but thats not whats happening. It just smacks to me that your argument crumbles at scrutiny and it just exposes the fundamental cognitive dissonance that a lot of what you are saying holds.

Imnobody4 · 02/08/2019 16:26

In fact radfems are aware most of the world disagrees with them
Which is why they are totally irrelevant as agents of change.
I've never married or had children from choice. Never earned more than the average wage and I'm fine. All my neices and many other women I know have become single parents, maybe its a struggle but beats an unhappy marriage.

sakura184 · 02/08/2019 17:20

I'd be interested to know the numbers of women that live alone because in my experience it can't be virtually impossible, simply because so many manage it!

It's arguably a privilege in a patriarchy though. There is a thread right now on here about how housing is unaffordable for women in all areas of England.

That's actually one beef I have with the antinatalist radical feminists because it's also arguably a privilege not to have children. Some feminists think so. There is also a lot of talk about "mother privilege" because patriarchy apparently rewards motherhood. I personally don't think it does reward mothers at all and I think any privilege conferred upon mothers might be some sort of naturally derived condition of having birthed. I'd never say that in a radical feminist space though!

RedToothBrush · 02/08/2019 17:21

I think that the problem is when your politics become your entire identity and you believe you have sole ownership of those politics.

Exchanging views is where progress is made.

You don't defeat oppression by figuring ways to inflict the same on those who do it to you.

sakura184 · 02/08/2019 17:21

Which is why they are totally irrelevant as agents of change

Arguably so.

sakura184 · 02/08/2019 17:22

You don't defeat oppression by figuring ways to inflict the same on those who do it to you.

I don't think radical feminists want revenge, though who could blame them if they did. I think they want separatism, to be able to live without men around

GrammarTeacher · 02/08/2019 17:24

You do know that property is unaffordable for everyone in large parts of the country, yes?

sakura184 · 02/08/2019 17:25

Yes but I'm a radical feminist. Why are you "what about the menning" ?

sakura184 · 02/08/2019 17:26

Or at least I'm looking at views through a radfem lens . I don't know if I would call myself a radical feminist.

sakura184 · 02/08/2019 17:28

That's literally like saying Muslims shouldn't be annoyed that they can't afford housing because gays can't afford them either

RedToothBrush · 02/08/2019 17:29

Acknowledging we live in a society of men and women isn't what about menning.

It's acknowledging reality.

I kind of think the continuing of the species isn't a bad thing.

sakura184 · 02/08/2019 17:35

I kind of think the continuing of the species isn't a bad thing.

Ah now see, I thought that, but now I'm not so sure.
Young women are pretty annoyed at the shit tip they've been born into. Not even radical feminist women, just young women in general. They're saying things like "people who have babies are child abusers" , "my generation knows we've got no future so we just want to enjoy each other's company and eat good food"

This is coming from women unrelated to radical feminism

GrammarTeacher · 02/08/2019 18:16

Where are you hearing this? I teach and only rarely since I qualified have I come across such nihilism in my students (male and female). They are worried about the future but want to make it better. Many of them have actually had children (I've been teaching quite a while now).
By all means go for the extinction of the species but that really is jumping the shark.
This kind of thinking is why no one takes feminism of any kind seriously and I'm getting tired of it. There is stuff we need to sort in the world right now. Practically women's rights are under attack. You won't win people over to our side by saying that we need to eradicate men. Many of them are perfectly acceptable people.

notathing · 02/08/2019 18:19

I self describe as radfem ish. I'm (happily) married to a man and have kids, including a son. I'm not in FB radfem groups unless they have a particular focus (e.g. for mothers, radfem lit, etc). I dunno, I just can't get on board with ideas like I should have aborted my son (call me crazy, I know!).

I agree with BeyondDangerousTshirts that notmynigel comments aren't helpful though. To me that kinda derails the conversation

Maniak · 02/08/2019 18:54

I really hate this concept that if you're a feminist you have to reject PIV which some of us genuinely enjoy. Not just because we 'have' to but because we like it. And that's ok. It's ok not to like it to.

But it's really NOT okay not to like it. Of course, the rhetoric is that it's okay to like or not like anything. But most men it's PIV or nothing. Or at least penis in some orifice. Has to be. Otherwise it's not sex and as some pp said, many men would leave a relationship if they're not getting sex.

To me that's the value of the radical ideology. What if I wanted sex centred around my own pleasure and refused penetration? Well, it's unthinkable in the context of a relationship with a man. It's either refusal or penetration sex. But the other way round, sex that gives only men orgasms is commonplace. So why?

Maniak · 02/08/2019 19:05

My problem with radical feminism is that it's not radical enough. If it had motherhood as an assumed default for women, then there would be demand for a complete economic overhaul. That's what I want to see. It can't just wish away motherhood. Well, obviously it can because it does. But that's its weakness imo.