Michael Biggs paper on the Tavistock

[RedToothBrush]

Seems to have been published yesterday.

Link to pdf in the following tweet.

This paper when published will document an appalling scandal the NHS is inflicting on children.

Andrew Lewis @ lecandardnoir
Hidden trials. Suppressed results. Misleading parents and children entering trials. Ideologically driven treatments. Cover ups. You name it. #alltrials
t.co/34pe8JOmvG

If this is even half accurate Carmichael should be struck off and jailed.

Worth reading.

I’ve never really thought about this angle before, but the kids on puberty blockers - how do they do university/friendships/relationships/hold down a serious job/decide to settle down/get a mortgage if mentally they are stuck at 11 even in 20s and 30s? They are going to need support just to get by surely?

So presumably by that age they will have started cross sex hormones. Does that affect maturation of the brain?

Once they gave them the hormones consistent with the gender they affirmed, they looked beautiful. They looked normal."

That's so creepy. There is no insight there into the person, just a sort of experiment.

It's always a tendency with surgeons, to have an almost engineer-like attitude that is about very straightforward problem solving, very linear. But not really a great approach to treating people.

Horrific, scary shit. Heartbreaking for the kids & families involved.

Does anyone know where the paper is/will be published?

"I was salivating,” he recalled.

BOAK. Creepy fucking creep.

But I hadn't though about the end result - an adult child unable to form satisfying sexual relationships, needing permanent medication and with little or no sense of self actualisation, needing the validation of others to establish their sense of self.

Did I read that Jazz Jennings mum helps Jazz with their dilation?

Jazz is 18.

Not normal.

I think quite a lot of this is about surgeons and medics doing things because they can. We persist in trusting these people absolutely when we have seen time and again what happens when power gets the better of them.
The psychologically healthy ones keep themselves in check, but many of them are not healthy - just like the general population.

There is a high incidence of psychopathy among surgeons.

publishing.rcseng.ac.uk/doi/full/10.1308/rcsbull.2015.331

It’s often an asset - but clearly not always.

That is going to give me nightmares for a long while. Michael Biggs is owed a lot.

Where are all the early transitioning kids? If they were say 12 in 2011, they should be 18 now

I strongly suspect they will be desperately clinging on to the false promises.

Sadly it may take a few more years for them to feel brave enough speak out.

It is the new Thalidomide.

It is the new Thalidomide.

Yup.

Why exactly were GIDS staff consulting families about the patient information sheet? That should based on clinical data only, free from external influences.

Just a point about this (speaking as someone involved in research). It is good practice to consult patients/families on patient information sheets to ensure they are readable and sensitive/friendly for the reader. Information sheets written by academics without consultation can be offputting and opaque, which also doesn't help with informed consent.

Obviously no relevant clinical information should be dropped on their say-so - this would go against good clinical practice. But we need to be aware of these nuances if we are to get involved in discussions about how research has been carried out.

Information sheets written by academics without consultation can be offputting and opaque, which also doesn't help with informed consent.

Got to agree with niceberg here. Ethics committees have strict rules about what is included on information and consent sheets and they are NOT user friendly. People often need, and want, a verbal explanation.

From the discussions upthread, it is not clear that enough attention was paid to highlighting potential risks like infertility, anorgasmia (hope that is real word) or even brain development.

Capacity to consent also needs to relate to the consequences. If you fill in a survey about your favourite hot beverages, it might not matter that you don’t know whether the research is sponsored by the Tea Drinkers Association or the Coffee Lovers Club. What worries me is whether a 12 year old can make decisions about their later sexual lives (among so many other things).

I also worry about children who experience puberty early. People refer to ‘teenagers’ taking puberty blockers but actually some children might ‘need’ to take them earlier. I don’t think we know yet the ages of the youngest children in this trial.

Capacity to consent
This is an interesting point.

With children, doctors have to make decisions on the basis of medical need, and the effects of the treatment.

Procedures often involve an alteration of lifestyle in some way, eg a stoma bag, side effects, cochlear implants etc.

Doctors constantly have to balance the medical intervention with the child's capacity to cope, understand why, and if there is sufficient family support.

Age is not always relevant, maturity of the child is.

I am not sure if the Gillick (guidelines?) cover this aspect.

Procedures often involve an alteration of lifestyle in some way, eg a stoma bag, side effects, cochlear implants etc

Thing is there is information for these things. Success rates. Infection rates . And a wide range of material to read.

I think if someone told parents that 50 percent of people who didnt get a cochlear implant killed themselves based on 27 self selecting people and no control group people would be complaining about that as well.

I also think the difference with the medical incidents you mentioned is, that they are physical and measurable conditions.

It's not reliant on other people to pretend they cant hear either or that its something its not.

Other procedures do not depend on the rest of the word colluding or being held responsible for their death.

Yes, the amount of information available is immense.

The doctor, is the person with knowledge and experience to offer help and advice to the child.
But,
I was thinking at the point where the doctor scratches their head and asks themselves this question,
if I proceed, will the child be mature enough to deal with the effects?

What guides the doctors at this point?

Probably the ability to discuss with all of the childs care givers and to seek advice from experts in the field who are medically trained and paediactrically trained without the fear of being fired or harassed for asking questions.

and to seek advice from experts in the field who are medically trained and paediactrically trained without the fear of being fired or harassed for asking questions
This statement ^^
... is where the problem is.

When doctors fear speaking out is a problem.

To be fair I'm not just talking about incidents but specifically the question of when.
When, does the child have the maturity to understand why a procedure needs to be done.
Even minor procedures sometimes need a bit more than consent.
A second opinion perhaps or simply waiting and watching.

I think the use of puberty blockers on children being described as a 'pause' is misleading us all.

The 'pause' narrative is key here.
It suggests they are taking a step back and doing no harm.

When in reality they are doing completely the opposite.

I think also that alot of children who have disabilities or conditions and who potentially need these operations/treatments , in many cases are alot nore switched on. they have lived with it their whole lives. Have had to adapt to their limitations . Some, not all obviously, have maturity well beyond their years. They have had no choice but to grow up and face things. Learn sign language. Learn to push themselves around or get around .

Puberty blockers and the trans pathway ensures the opposite. Far from facing reality everyone around them has to play along. Puberty blockers limit their brain development and put them on a path theres no turning back from without some remaining alterations. Really I dont think they are comparable.in that sense . If that makes any sense at all .in a way it's the complete opposite of other conditions.

Quote from the "I am Leo" link ^^

"Good to be me: I accept myself for who and what I am"

Why are people not doing that then? Why are they insisting on focusng on the opposite "you've got the wrong body, don't accept yourself as you are, it's not good to be you in that body so change it....."

Sarah
There is a lot of insight in your post, regarding children being switched on about their condition.

They don't like being fobbed off.
They know this will hurt.

Life is a struggle for them and most likely will continue to be so.
Many develop a strength of character that is indeed maturity.

So with children being encouraged to see their biological sex as some kind of choice,
then they are being lied to.

Immature but healthy children being lied to

You can't medicalise your way into a different sexed body.
You just can't.

Yet this is what they're being told.

You can't medicalise your way into a different sexed body
You just cant

Yes the one thing drs are meant to be is honest. Drs are meant to show you away from the internet exaggerations. the horror stories. The lies.

They arent meant to indulge them. So many children spend their days in and out of hospitals. Have their lives limited by courses of treatments. Why anyone would allow a perfectly healthy child to enter an delusional pathway and make them.a lifelong medical patient I dont know.

And they do so seemingly safe in the knowledge that if anything and happens its not them that's responsible. It's the bigots and the bullies fault.

Sorry angry
My stepdaughter is fully believing all the mermaids bullshit. Her father is not seeing her currently because he’s so upset and she does not understand why that would be.
Her grandparents and wider family is also bemused and sad.
Her mother has also totally been taken on my Mermaids etc. It’s a very bad situation.

Just to agree with all of the PPs who've drawn attention to the failure by the ethics committee who approved the study, in addition to the participating clinicians and the parents who gave their consent.

I'm aghast at the sheer scale of these ethical failures.