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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

KD Lang on masculine women

27 replies

Gingerkittykat · 28/07/2019 17:47

Facebook link to interview

KD Lang says society is threatened by masculine women. Is that correct in your experience?

Is that hostility to women who appear butch part of the trans problem? Is society less threatened and accepting of someone transitioning and probably appearing like a slightly effeminate man.

My view is we should be encouraging these gender non conforming women to embrace who they are.

OP posts:
NeurotrashWarrior · 28/07/2019 18:41

Not personally certainly; but I grew up admiring George in Famous five and knowing to be strong as a woman was good, the term masculine didn't really feature.

Masculine women today don't threaten me - not really sure what it means. Butch? It's possible it's more socially acceptable out and about to be a trans man as they usually pass well. It's certainly what some of the de transitioning women are saying they felt.

I wonder if it was more the case a good 10-15 years ago which is when today's teens were children. I feel in the last 5 years there's been a big celebration of sporting female heroes eg boxing, football, and tougher female leads in films (not quite butch yet though.)

NeurotrashWarrior · 28/07/2019 18:42

The patriarchy doesn't like em.

SomeDyke · 28/07/2019 21:26

Massively, and always have been. Being a gender non conforming lesbian is not acceptable, and straight blokes feel threatened. I had a friend who was in a relationship with someone who already had kids, and she toyed with the idea of transitioning because she thought it might be easier socially. Because then you are saying in effect butch lesbians don't really exist we were just straight blokes born in the wrong body. Rather than a threat and someone who might want to steal their women, you would instead become a wannabe without a fully functioning dick.

RaggeddeeAnn · 28/07/2019 22:34

Not all masculine women are lesbian/butch. Sexuality is entirely independent of the gender stereotypes that make up what we view as masculine or feminine.
I know many gender nonconforming masculine women who are straight.
Anyone who is gender nonconforming- man or woman- is viewed poorly by society. If we must call it “patriarchy” then it is just has harsh on feminine men as it is on masculine women.
IMHO, it is actually worse now than it was twenty years ago. Back then it was at least recognised you were a masculine woman or feminine man. You were mocked but your identity as a woman or man was not questioned. Nowadays society tells gender nonconforming women that they are not “real” women but transmen and must conform their bodies to match their masculine traits in order to fit in. (And vice versa for effeminate men).

SomeDyke · 28/07/2019 23:38

Butch/femme is a lesbian specific mode of presentation. Which in the narrow constraints of gender gets labelled as simplistically masculine and feminine. Which in some eyes then reduces to wanting to be a man and (thinking well of loneliness here) possibly stealing 'our women'. Just think what happened to stephen. Saying it is independent of sexuality is nonsense unless you believe it is innate, the whole reaction to masculine women is what parts of what is supposedly reserved for males that females were usurping, including sexual services of women. But masculine women were claiming what they weren't entitled to, whereas feminine men were committing a different heinous crime. It's adopting clothes or behaviour not permitted for your sex whilst still insisting you were your sex.

Sunkisses · 29/07/2019 00:00

'Masculine' women are threatening and intimidating to men as their actions (refusing to play the beauty game) are saying 'I don't want, and I don't need you. I don't care what you think of me, and I don't want you to desire me' to men. I've noticed so many of the young women nowadays who attempt a 'masculine' look (combats, shaved head etc) still have perfect make up, sculptured eyebrows, shaved legs, nail polish. It's so shallow, like the shaved head is just a fashion accessory to appropriate certain aspects of the fierceness of the truly liberated woman, but in an 'acceptable' way, that doesn't intimidate the men.

DancelikeEmmaGoldman · 29/07/2019 01:19

I’m a straight woman, but if kd tipped me the nod, I’d be there in a hot minute.

But I think women who refuse to fulfil the requirements of feminine stereotyping challenge social norms. They make women uncomfortable because their appearance makes it clear that performing femininity is a construct, and a time-consuming and often uncomfortable one.

They disturb men because their appearance says they’re not interested in dressing up to attract men. If they’re lesbians, it’s even more a fuck you to patriarchal ideas of a woman’s role. People willing to step outside of convention norms in dress and behaviour always attract criticism.

Women who choose to step out of socially acceptable standards of presentation are a symbol of rebellion. For the patriarchy they’re outside the circle of the campfire, beckoning women to freedom.

“Pssst! Come over here. You can run without falling off your heels and spend your money on chocolate and liberation instead of waxing”.

Social convention is like vaccination, it only really works if everyone does it, so those who don’t participate are policed and punished.

I think Neurotrash, is right. What is acceptable for gender categories has narrowed over the last couple of decades. Instead of Colette being gloriously and stylishly herself, nowadays she’d only be acceptable if she declared herself a man.

KD Lang on masculine women
TinklyLittleLaugh · 29/07/2019 01:41

Totally irrelevant but as a straight woman, I too find k.d. lang extremely attractive. There’s just something about her.

DancelikeEmmaGoldman · 29/07/2019 01:57

Nods vigorously in agreement at TinklyLittleLaugh.

Gingerkittykat · 29/07/2019 02:05

Another straight woman who also finds KD Lang utterly gorgeous!

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Sarahjconnor · 29/07/2019 04:19

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

NeurotrashWarrior · 29/07/2019 06:58

My brain was definitely affected by a mild hangover last night; I don't know why I didn't think of this - a good friend doesn't look masculine at all but can interact with people in a way that is extremely 'alpha,' also very knowledgeable about techy and political business things as she's in stem and also is a very experienced sailor. Very well travelled too. She has experienced a lot of sexism in her work.

She seems to sometimes annoy some men. At work and socially. Not always by any means but she briefly dated my husband's friend and the wider group of friends really struggled to 'get' her. And I felt they felt threatened by her, intellectually and socially. Sadly she's still single. She tends to find men who are like her attractive but they do seem to find her not feminine enough, despite her definitely being much more 'feminine' than many of my friends.

And yes I'm straight but KD is hot!

Not fitting in visually I suspect is a big driver to the trans trend for young teens. "I didn't think you could be a woman and look like me" is a phrase I've heard from de transitioned women.

TheBigBallOfOil · 29/07/2019 07:02

It was interesting to see how some of the reviews of the recent film about colette described her lesbian partner as trans. When I say interesting I of course mean infuriating

NeurotrashWarrior · 29/07/2019 07:03

Oh and another friend who moved to London in her early 20s and is a lawyer suddenly really went down the 'performing femininity,' including moving from brunette to blonde stating that she found she could somehow get a better response / was treated better in the workplace (which always rather irked me.)

I guess this is all patriarchy at play.

InsulatedCup · 29/07/2019 07:07

I think this is at the heart of the rise in young people identifying as trans:

Social convention is like vaccination, it only really works if everyone does it, so those who don’t participate are policed and punished.

Disfordarkchocolate · 29/07/2019 07:10

They have been the butt of many a joke, often a sign that some section of society finds you threatening.

JustAnotherWoman · 29/07/2019 07:30

KD Lang was part of how I realised I was bi, she was(still is) so beautiful and comfortable with herself. I didn't have the words to describe her look as masculine implies she looks like a man but to me she is unadorned tall strong female who doesn't perform femininity.

I love her strength, I realised I perform femininity in looks to try and diguise my unwillingness to perform femininity in flattering my male colleagues. Grin

thirdfiddle · 29/07/2019 08:33

I never feel quite comfortable describing women who don't go along with stereotypes as "masculine". For the same reason as I hated being called a tomboy as a short haired outdoorsy type girl, it seemed to imply I was somehow lesser in my own sex.

FormerMediocreMale · 29/07/2019 09:14

I dont know if its women being more masculine that is threatening to men or just when women dont centre them.

FormerMediocreMale · 29/07/2019 09:17

I dont find KD Lang remotely masculine I think she is a good looking woman but her striking feminine features are what makes her unattractive to me.

Arpafeelie · 29/07/2019 14:00

Another straight woman here who would melt into a puddle if I was ever lucky enough to meet kd.

Dustybun · 30/07/2019 08:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Cecily75 · 30/07/2019 09:00

Nothing clever to add to you lot I'm afraid, although I agree with much of what's been posted - I've learnt the phrase "performed feminity" from this thread and will think on it.

Just posting to join the kd I'm-straight-but-so-would fan club. She's just gorgeous and that voice! Coincidentally I've just spent the last few weeks listening to Ingénue on repeat.

SomeDyke · 30/07/2019 09:48

If you are attracted to masculinity why are you not attracted to men? Honestly I’m just curious and Cos lesbians don't do dick. Because sex is unchangeable and real, whilst masculinity or femininity is mostly just a set of behaviours that can be taken on by either sex. Because I am only attracted to those of the same sex as myself. Physical reality.

Dustybun · 30/07/2019 10:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

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