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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Another MP speaks out; is the tide turning?

30 replies

MrsSnippyPants · 28/07/2019 15:27

John Hayes, Conservative

Another MP speaks out; is the tide turning?
OP posts:
SonicVersusGynaephobia · 28/07/2019 15:29

It is. Slowly but surely.

ThePurported · 28/07/2019 15:45

He said that in April.
Andrea Leadsom's response:

"My right hon. Friend raises an incredibly sensitive topic. We want to make the legal gender recognition process less intrusive and bureaucratic for transgender people. Being trans is not an illness and it should not be treated as though it is. That is why we held our consultation on the Gender Recognition Act 2004. It is a sensitive topic, and it is important to hear all views on it, including those of some young people perhaps being pushed to make decisions too early. My right hon. Friend the Minister for Women and Equalities is determined to ensure that we get this right."

He might as well have been talking to the wall, but good of him to try.

WhereYouLeftIt · 28/07/2019 15:45

That's a thoughtful statement. And primes the under-secratary for action. I await her "taking the opportunity to make a statement" with interest.

ThePurported · 28/07/2019 15:46

Jackie Doyle-Price is no longer a health minister.

WhereYouLeftIt · 28/07/2019 15:47

Ah, thanks ThePurported. That is disappointing.

ThePurported · 28/07/2019 15:49

It is, but she can still speak up if she has concerns.

AnotherAdultHumanFemale · 28/07/2019 15:58

What confuses me about the reply is, who says it isn't an illness? I thought that it was connected to a)being gay and having internalised homophobia or b)being an autogynephile. I thought this was decided after years of research by doctors, psychologists and psychiatrists.

I don't say this to be mean or cruel, I'm just genuinely confused who decided suddenly that men could be 'born in the wrong body' since there is zero scientific evidence of this and it is no different to a religious belief.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 28/07/2019 16:01

We want to make the legal gender recognition process less intrusive and bureaucratic for transgender people. Being trans is not an illness and it should not be treated as though it is.

Claiming your pension isn't an illness. Neither is getting a driving licence. And yet we have to go through a quite extensive bureaucratic process to get either.

Changing legal sex is arguably far more significant than either of those examples, and yet the government wants to make it a matter of simple self declaration.

I think the GRA should be repealed, but if they are determined to keep it they should bar anyone who has committed sex or violent crimes. And anyone wanting a GRC should be assessed by psychiatrists to weed out anyone whose motivation for transition is primarily sexual.

It seems to me that things might work better if you could demand to see someone's GRC in appropriate circumstances. So a visibly male person in the women's changing room could be challenged to produce their certificate and, if no certificate is forthcoming they would be ejected, and possibly fined.

I can't see much point in a GRC if you're never allowed to check whether someone has one.

ThePurported · 28/07/2019 16:14

What confuses me about the reply is, who says it isn't an illness?

The trans lobby? MPs now believe that the GRA reform will fix everything, that it's just about 'equality'.
Ffs, Hayes was trying to highlight ethical and safety concerns relating to life-altering experimental treatment, and Leadsom referred him to Women & Equalities. The stupidity is mind-boggling.

merrymouse · 28/07/2019 20:04

It's either a) an illness similar to any other kind of dysphoric condition or b) a belief in a particular ideology that proposes that everyone has a gender identity that is either masculine or feminine.

I have sympathy with a).

I think the 'it's not an illness' concept is just more piggy backing on gay rights.

littlbrowndog · 28/07/2019 20:10

A Canadian politician has spoke out about Yaniv. The politician said Yaniv was a man

In Canada that home of silence. The twitter support from the Canadians was like a dam had burst from ordinary ppl

Needmoresleep · 28/07/2019 20:15

Given the timing, I read this as Jackie Doyle-Price, whose remit was Mental Health, Inequalities and Suicide Prevention, making a grab for policy lead on the Tavistock resignation/medical aspects. This would have made sense as policy involving medical interventions could then have been more easily informed by doctors and ethical protocols.

John Hayes asks the Leader of the House, Andrea Leadsom, if Jackie D-P can make a statement. Leadsom is having none of it and confirms policy lies with Mordaunt.

Thank goodness Mordaunt has gone. There is blood on her hands.

But evidence that there seem to be a few within the Conservative Party, albeit to the right of the party, who have retained a level of common sense.

InsulatedCup · 28/07/2019 20:22

From the NHS pages on Gender Dysphoria:

"Gender dysphoria is a recognised medical condition, for which treatment is sometimes appropriate. It's not a mental illness."

The same page also then goes on to say no one knows the cause, but then implies that it's hormones in the womb, by giving that example,

gender dysphoria may be caused by hormones not working properly in the womb

and talks about being intersex, which is a completely separate issue.

It's really sloppy and misleading.

ThePurported · 28/07/2019 20:32

Sounds encouraging doglet, have you got a link for the Canada thread?

I think the 'it's not an illness' concept is just more piggy backing on gay rights.
merrymouse Exactly that. Stonewall has set the tone, but it's very, very worrying how blithely some MPs have accepted an ideology that puts children on a path towards sterilisation and lifelong reliance on hormones. The lack of critical thinking is terrifying, but I do wonder if homophobia is a factor. It's such a neat solution to 'fixing' gender-non-conforming kids.

merrymouse · 28/07/2019 20:45

We want to make the legal gender recognition process less intrusive and bureaucratic for transgender people.

Wouldn't it be a good idea to explain why gender needs to be recognised first?

littlbrowndog · 28/07/2019 20:50

Yeah it’s mermame bernier. Ok spelling not me strongest skill but if you google

littlbrowndog · 28/07/2019 20:53

Maxime not what I wrote 👆up there

RedToothBrush · 28/07/2019 20:54

Jackie Doyle-Price was Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Mental Health, Inequalities and Suicide Prevention).

As yet, there have been two Parliamentary Under Secretary of State for Health appointed by Boris Johnson. They are Johanna Peta Churchill (who I know nothing about) and Nadine Dorries (who I wish I knew nothing about)

As yet I don't believe either have been assigned a portfolio or whether the mental health position will continue under Johnson as the position was very much a hobby horse for May. If the post does continue under Johnson's leadership it will one of those too who takes it on.

FormerMediocreMale · 28/07/2019 22:37

The politician said Yaniv was a man

In Canada that home of silence. The twitter support from the Canadians was like a dam had burst from ordinary ppl

Wow, but under self id i thought he was legally a woman. Be intetesting where this goes if a politician in canada has actually spoken up!

ThePurported · 28/07/2019 22:39

I just saw via TransgenderTrend that Jackie Doyle-Price did raise it just a few days ago before she went in the reshuffle. She says the issue is under review.

It was the Body Image and Mental Health debate on 23 July 2019.
hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2019-07-23/debates/919E1A70-B3FE-46BF-85FE-93CCFF3B47EF/BodyImageAndMentalHealth

Copying the relevant bit from Hansard, but if anyone has time to read the whole report there might be contributions from other MPs on this issue, although I'm not sure how many MPs would have attended this debate on Theresa May's last day - I doubt it got much attention tbh.

"Another issue I would like to talk about is gender identity, which has been the subject of quite a number of negative reports in our newspapers in recent months and, indeed, on Radio 4 this week. This is about people’s sense of self and physical appearance and about them wanting to change their gender identity. We have been aware of the issue of gender dysphoria, but there has been quite a lot of comment, and the House and the public need reassurance that the treatments available on the NHS, particularly for children, are appropriate.

To put the issue in context, gender dysphoria is where a person experiences discomfort or distress because there is a mismatch between their biological sex and their gender identity. That is incredibly difficult for anyone to deal with, but young people, in particular, will find it difficult. Many Members will have had representations from constituents about access to services to cope with gender dysphoria—I know that because I have signed many letters on the issue. It is essential that someone suffering with gender dysphoria receives the right support—support that really considers their holistic needs—because gender dysphoria often exists alongside other morbidities, and we must make sure we treat the whole person. Where appropriate, people should receive specialist treatment.

The Gender Identity Development Service for children and young people is provided by the Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust. There has been lots of concern in the press about that trust, but having discussed the service with NHS England and visited it, I would like to try to give Members some reassurance and to address some of the points that have been made about the service.

The first thing I think the service would like to get across is that gender should be seen as a spectrum. The whole treatment pathway is based on allowing children to explore their feelings in a safe environment. Not all children referred to the service will go on to transition. That is an important point to recognise, because if children have the time and space to work through their feelings, that will perhaps lead to a different treatment pathway.

I know there has been lots of concern that too many children are being referred to the service, but I would like to reassure the House that the service takes children through treatment in a very exploratory way around gender, and more than half of the children referred do not go on to transition. The service will treat each case as individual and complex and will address some of the co-morbidities that come along with gender dysphoria—lots of concern has been raised about the fact that some of these children are also on the autism spectrum.

It is important to recognise that, compared with services internationally, the service is very much at the conservative end of provision, which has led to it being criticised as far too conservative by some aspects of the lobby in favour of more services. However, where we are dealing with children who have not reached the age of majority, and where some of the treatments they may go through may be irreversible, the whole issue of consent is clearly important.

It is important to note that this aspect of service has grown quickly, and it has done so in an absence of public scrutiny. I can understand why there will be some public concern about it, so I would like to reassure the House that I am working with NHS England to do a proper review of the research around this service and the ethics of it to establish a proper framework for consent, recognising that we are looking at treatments that may have long-term consequences.

I can assure the House that the service works hard to ensure that consent is robust and that young people who might receive hormone therapy receive adequate information about the nature and consequences of that treatment. Such consent is not a one-off decision; it requires ongoing dialogue with the service. It will also require some assessment of the capacity and competence of the individuals consenting.

It is important to assure the House that this issue is very much under review. My starting point is that nothing should be undertaken in this space that would be irreversible for anyone under the age of 18. With that in mind, NHS England is putting in place a new policy and a new service specification for children’s services, and will thoroughly consider the issues that have come up in the press recently. Clearly, those issues will be a matter for debate, and many Members will have an interest in them. It is important for public confidence, as well as to enable access to services, that we have a proper, ethical debate around consent and the clinical evidence behind prescribing long-term hormone treatments."

ThePurported · 28/07/2019 22:44

I should have checked first, Red had a thread about the debate.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3645877-Debate-on-body-image-and-mental-health

Needmoresleep · 29/07/2019 07:12

The Puported, the debate was largely focused on body image, surgery, anorexia, social media and Love Island. Only one MP, Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland West) (Lab), picked up on the trans point, and then not very helpfully. (More trans is trans, so targeted mental health provision is needed, rather than potential co-morbidities should be explored instead of simply affirming a child as trans.)

"It is worrying to hear about body image concerns among lesbian, gay and bisexual people. One third of adults who identify as lesbian, gay or bisexual have reported experiencing suicidal feelings in relation to their body image. It is therefore important that lesbian, gay and bisexual people have access to support that is tailored to them. Has the Minister taken steps to ensure that lesbian, gay and bisexual people have access to appropriate mental health support?

As we know, trans body image is often linked to a specific condition called body dysmorphia, which means it is not included in the statistics I just mentioned. Trans people face specific challenges in accessing mental health support, so it is vital that the Government ensure that mental health support tailored to trans people is available throughout the country. Will the Minister explain what steps the Government are taking to provide mental health services for trans people in this regard?"

Lumene · 29/07/2019 12:20

But evidence that there seem to be a few within the Conservative Party, albeit to the right of the party, who have retained a level of common sense.

There are MPs across the political spectrum in both Labour and Conservative parties who can see the issues with self-ID

GCAcademic · 29/07/2019 12:33

I wouldn't consider my tory MP to be to the right of the party, and she sees the problems with it, as do a number of her moderate colleagues (or so she tells me - she named them), none of whom have spoken out publicly yet.

OldCrone · 29/07/2019 12:47

Just picking up on some points from that Hansard quote.

To put the issue in context, gender dysphoria is where a person experiences discomfort or distress because there is a mismatch between their biological sex and their gender identity.

If laws are being made around such issues as 'gender identity', and children are being medicated, we need a proper definition of 'gender identity' that everyone can understand and agree upon. I have yet to see a definition which isn't either based on sexist stereotypes or hinges on a religious-style belief, which requires the acceptance of the idea of a gendered soul.

The first thing I think the service would like to get across is that gender should be seen as a spectrum. The whole treatment pathway is based on allowing children to explore their feelings in a safe environment.

What does she mean, exactly, by 'gender'? It's clearly not a synonym for 'sex' in this context, since sex is most certainly not a a spectrum. Is she just saying that we all have different personalities?

Why is there any sort of treatment pathway if gender dysphoria is not an illness (as we are repeatedly told)? Are there other non-illnesses which require a treatment pathway?

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