Are feminists getting played?

[Maniak]

It makes me sad that feminists are spending so much time banging on about bathrooms in a world that has women still working for no pay, old women still more likely to be poor, surrogacy, underfunded maternity care, and poor support for carers. And other stuff.

Yes, the trans thing is annoying, but have you noticed how it always fires up before major elections? It's like Afghanistan in the 80s when the US provided just enough weapons to keep the war going so Russia would use all it's energy and get weak.

I feel like feminism is getting distracted with the trans stuff. At most, it should take up 10 percent of our feminist attention. But I rarely see feminism these days that isn't all about trans. Seriously. Do you think we're getting played here? Is trans really such a big deal?

Ive been reading FWR for about 4 years now and I miss the academic well read feminist posters very much

I've been reading FWR for about 4 years. I don't miss the academics in the slightest. I think the discussions are far more lively, interesting and engaging without them.

Cohle has a point about the silly games and the recipes. It seems to me one should either refute arguments and posters one disagrees with or ignore them. It does all get a bit too mean girls ganging up. (That will no doubt cue the inevitable "don't tell women to be nice " response whereas it's more "don't carry on like a bunch of bullying schoolgirls")

Sakura for what it is worth I think some posts directed at you have been personal attacks and I reported them.

That does not however stop me finding most of what you post extreme and illogical. Your continual harping on about marriage =prostitution is tedious. Your re-writing of what other people have actually said is tedious ; including a spectacular twisting of one of my replies to you.

Oh I'm glad they've re-banned that twat Jessica.

His smugness, fondly thinking that no one could see he was an MRA, was beginning to chafe.

My understanding is that the use of the 'games' and 'the recipes' are generally clues that experienced MNers have spotted a troll or disruptor who the rest of us should avoid, since these type of people usually try to engineer conversations that can end up with someone getting a ban.

The the silly games and the recipes require humour. Not everyone has it I suppose.

Thethe silly games and the recipesrequire humour. Not everyone has it I suppose

Humour is very subjective. Some people find Jim Davidson , Frankie Boyle and banter funny- it's a mystery to me why.

My understanding is that the use of the 'games' and 'the recipes' are generally clues that experienced MNers have spotted a troll or disruptor who the rest of us should avoid, since these type of people usually try to engineer conversations that can end up with someone getting a ban

Really? You think genuine posters aren't bright enough to spot that without the silly games? If anything genuine posters just end up being puzzled by the silly games.

Obviously you (general you who find that sort of thing funny) can do what you want. Other people are equally entitled to form their own opinion of it.

I wish they would return. Mumsnet is one of the few places on the internet to get a GC point across and it seems to me to defeat your own purpose to not use the platform here

I understand this sentiment but also fully understand why people would not wish to remain in a place where they are censored. I hate not being able to speak my mind and use plain English as I do in real life. It put me off signing up to Mumsnet for a long time so I can only imagine how much more difficult it must be for women who were using the site long before the rules were imposed.

As for academic feminism I will confess to having little interest. The feminists I admire have always been the ones who have done something practical in the real world, Julie Blindel setting up Justice for Women for example. But that doesn't mean there isn't room for the academic side, or that the academic side doesn't help and underpin the practical. We're all grown ups, we can choose which threads to post on or read.

I’ve had the recipe treatment myself once so not a huge fan.

But generally I like the humour on here.

I think anyone who believes feminists shouldn’t have a laugh - even mid argument (especially mid argument) - must have led a pretty sheltered life.

Unless we can define ourselves as women and organise separately we can't fight on all those other issues, and all the major political parties are saying transwomen should have access to women's spaces, so yes it is a big deal.

My understanding is that the use of the 'games' and 'the recipes' are generally clues that experienced MNers have spotted a troll or disruptor who the rest of us should avoid, since these type of people usually try to engineer conversations that can end up with someone getting a ban.

If you think that then report them. Clearly MN will take action in appropriate cases -
given LordR is no longer with us. I tend to think the women here are clever enough to spot trolls without the games.

Reacting to perceived "disruptors" by yourself disrupting genuine attempts to discuss feminist issues seems ... counterproductive.

I certainly don't want to see any GC posters banned from MN, and I don't think anyone else on this thread does either. That said, if you're worried about being banned, following the talk guidelines seems an easier way to go about it than purposefully piling on to derail threads.

(Yes yes I'm a humourless shrew, if only understood how funny go fish is etc etc).

ou spent last night playing Rock Paper Scissors on this thread Rufus

Still with the exaggeration

I have said very many time that i know i join in with some of the sillier stuff on here

Actually I shouldn’t rise to negative comments

Im learning that...albeit slowly

I hope you’re considering your behaviour Rufus

I know I am

Actually I shouldn’t rise to negative comments

Are you sitting in the corner, one minute for every year remember?

We could be here a while. Well, half an hour at least. :)

Im joiner bernard its a fault

Id never get out of the sodding corner sackrifice

I tend to think the women here are clever enough to spot trolls without the games.

Really? Because Sakura, instead of answering a question directed at them, told us off earlier for not engaging with the troll you mentioned, they expected us to spend our time debating that troll rather than having discussions about the threat of self ID & trans ideology amongst ourselves. I certainly hope you’re not suggesting Sakura isn’t clever then, because they consider that abusive.

Lol.

Sorry, but it is.

It’s interesting to me that just as the wheels are coming off, just as even the Guardian can no longer ignore live medical experimentation on children, just as Canada is being made to reckon with the anti-woman nature of BillC-16, just as the IOC is now visible in the world press as having privileged a wealthy white male’s internal feelings over the material realities of Pacific Islander female athletes, and the implications of that, just as the press starts to notice rapists housed in female prisons and paedophiles pushing for male access to female toilets and changing rooms —

well, THAT exact moment is when the question arises: are feminists paying TOO MUCH attention to the trans issue.

Well, yes, I guess we must be. All that attention is actually having an effect.

I’m in awe of what women, standing in solidarity, can accomplish — have already accomplished.

Every single political party, lobbying organisations funded with millions, walls of silence erected by the media, geysers of pseudoscientific bafflegab, accusations of causing thousands of literal murders, oceans of big pharmaceutical cash —

Slowly but surely are being pushed back by ordinary women standing and speaking together.

And so the attempt begins, to shatter that “together” part.

Not falling for it.

BickerinBrattle

Very well said. I, for one, will persist in my quest to loosen the bolts on those wheels.

@sakura "Nobody is trying to persuade anyone from changing their course, this thread appears to me to be social commentary"

Right?

@floralbunting "Putting women at the centre of focus isn't unknown on here, despite the preponderance of topics you may feel get over egged"

There is a lot of brilliant stuff on here. That's why I'm spending time here.

I can understand how this thread might come across as a criticism of Mumsnet, but it really wasn't intended that way. I've only just joined mumsnet and don't even have a sense of what's normal for here yet. I was meaning feminist discussion everywhere, in real life, on Twitter, in the mainstream media, everywhere.

@Maniak

Your OP at the top of the page is the first post you ever made here in your user name, is it not?

@deepwatersolo "I do wonder, though, OP, what are all those feminist topics that are totally isolated from the question of what a woman even is? Can't be health care, can't be pay gap (factor in all the transwomen in Silicon Valley and the galss ceiling has officially been broken), can't be shelters, can't be sports, can't be scholarships,..."

We know what a woman is though. You know, and I know, and everyone knows. So if we wanted to have a conversation about women, we could easily. Sure, in some contexts we might be forced to say "cis women" or "biological women" or whatever the language of the day is. Yes, how annoying, but discussion is still possible.

@jackyholyoake "Your OP at the top of the page is the first post you ever made here in your user name, is it not?"

No. It's the first thread I've started, I think, but I've joined in other people's threads before this.

Hmm, if you claim to be a feminist but can't see the importance of transgender ideology and its impact on all women's issues then I think you may be self-identifying as a feminist.

Women are discriminated based on their sex, as a sex -class, not because of what they are wearing.