Are feminists getting played?

[Maniak]

It makes me sad that feminists are spending so much time banging on about bathrooms in a world that has women still working for no pay, old women still more likely to be poor, surrogacy, underfunded maternity care, and poor support for carers. And other stuff.

Yes, the trans thing is annoying, but have you noticed how it always fires up before major elections? It's like Afghanistan in the 80s when the US provided just enough weapons to keep the war going so Russia would use all it's energy and get weak.

I feel like feminism is getting distracted with the trans stuff. At most, it should take up 10 percent of our feminist attention. But I rarely see feminism these days that isn't all about trans. Seriously. Do you think we're getting played here? Is trans really such a big deal?

Floral, No need to do that. I'm against the idea that mens voices should be prioritised over women's.

I so needed the laugh.

DanceLikeEmmaGoldman, was I too subtle, do you think?

Diversion:

A trams widow speaks to the meeting in Manchester #makemorenoise :

twitter.com/SafeSchools_UK/status/1155190186483040257

See also: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3101834-trans-widows-escape-committee

and

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3471122-trans-widows-escape-committee-2-the-trans-widows-strike-back

The impact of autogynephilic men on children and women

Typing error: "trams widow" should read as "trans widow" [sorry!]

Short of a banner behind an airplane Floral, not sure how much subtler you could have been.

Well it is Manchester Jacky so you could be forgiven the tramsgression

Well it is Manchester ...

Sounds like a fabulous meeting .. looking forward to the release of the videos of the speakers.

I can't actually think of any women's rights that won't be affected by trans ideology. I really can't.

I can't actually think of any women's rights that won't be affected by trans ideology. I really can't.

Very well said youkiddingme

Neither can any other woman who exercises critical thinking.

@sakura184 "I also think that genderism is something women feel they can beat and win and overcome.

I mean how the fuck do you stop men from bombing people? You can't, is the answer. So best focus on what is achievable"

Right. Yeah maybe. I've seen people here conflate trans advocacy with the patriarchy. Or that cool dragon metaphor, which suggests that it's all the same thing, that attacking Yaniv is the same as attacking any part of the patriarchy. And Yaniv is such an easy target, right there in our faces, why bother with more difficult ones?

Oooh look feminists, something shiny.

Yeah, heard it. Got this t shirt. If we don't fight now to preserve and separate women's rights from males who want to use them, there is no point in ever worrying about any other feminist or women's rights issue ever again. Game over. Done.

So no thanks, you can keep your shiny thing, and I can handle as many difficult targets as necessary in order to protect women, girls and safeguarding of children from a concerted and organised assault.

@jackyholyoake "My understanding is that the OP intended this thread as a disruptor. That is, its intent is to raise doubt about the purpose and direction of this entire section of Mumsnet which is about Women's Rights."

No? I didn't mean Mumsnet but feminism in general, not not just being against trans but also the pro trans conversations that are dominating feminist conversations elsewhere.

But yeah, maybe we can't avoid those conversations. It's just they've been going on for a while now and it doesn't seem to me that there's an endpoint. It's not something that can be won be either side.

Well, Yaniv hasn't been an 'easy target', has h? There have been court orders, bannings, all sorts of ridiculously outre stuff that until now has been gotten away with, and without a certain amount of tenacity, would still be getting a pass. I think perhaps there's a touch of naive complacency knocking about that thinks that the abusive trans silliness is so* obviously wrong that someone would eventually sort it out, but the fact is that none of the baby steps forward that women have made, like the Scotland situation, or the GRA consultation becoming a hot potato that the government has just kicked into the long grass, would have actually happened were it not for women, many of them the women here, pressing and pressing and not letting it go.

I cannot fix everything in society I would like to, but it won't stop me trying. But human nature being what it is, I will tend to take on the fights I think I might be able to win.

"none of the baby steps forward that women have made, like the Scotland situation, or the GRA consultation becoming a hot potato that the government has just kicked into the long grass, would have actually happened were it not for women, many of them the women here, pressing and pressing and not letting it go"

You're right.

No, that's a good point @floralbunting. And it's not like I'm doing anything. I admire all those advocates. They are, as you say, relentless and impressive.

Yeah Michelle. Nailed it 💪

And yeah maniak it can be won. And will be won for the sake of our daughters and for girls and women everywhere.
No thanks shon. I am not welcoming my erasure

If we want to talk about poor women, well, there's women who are currently a great deal poorer because Yaniv has destroyed their businesses.

If we want to talk about poor women, there's women who are a great deal poorer because they have missed out on medals, and prize money, and sponsorship, because mediocre male-bodied athletes have stolen the top spots in women's sports.

If we want to talk about poor women, there's girls who are missing out on educational trips and other opportunities for their future CVs because they can't be confident of getting safe accommodation.

etc etc.

If we can’t define what a women is then what is a feminist as feminists centre women but then we can’t define what a women is then what can feminists talk about

As in Canada anyone who says they are a woman is a woman so what can feminists talk about ?

Maniak, FWIW, I understand why some are fed up of this bloody topic. I got to that stage almost as soon as the initial shock of having a trans ID kid wore off. It's exhausting and fucking annoying because I realized quickly that I was having the same conversations and dealing with repeated misinformation over and over. And yes, I get that sometimes it's prickly here - perhaps that's because the kinds of personalities that are able to tenaciously work on a wide ranging topic like this for a sustained period are not necessarily cuddly bunnies.

But despite discouragement, I do believe there can be progress. On lots of fronts, actually. Yes, we might not be able to stop the eventual nuclear annihilation or any other apocalyptic end, but until that point, we can mobilize this ruddy great crowd of women who have all the ingenuity, skills and derring do that has brought humanity any number of brilliant achievements, and inspire them to reach for a world that means they dont have to accept shit just because that's the way it's always been. Julia Long talked when I met her about being creative, rather than reactive, and I am really striving for that.

It's not something that can be won be either side.

But it could have been lost by our side, if women hadn't started resisting.

@datun I need help

Sorry, Girl, I had to go out.

Frankly, I have said everything I need to say, as has everyone else.

It's just becoming a rehash. A waste of time.

Directional your energies elsewhere, to where it will have an impact x

I agree that it's important because of some particular implications, especially around the law, speech issues, and the children's health issues are urgent. I also think it gets a lot of attention because people are so shocked when they find out what is going on.

I'm not sure I understand the need to be personal and sarcastic discussing it though. It does take up a lot of time and space. Maybe it is out of proportion. I can listen to someone talking about that. Even if I think they don't make sense I don't have to be personal about it.

"I'm not trying to "tell anyone off" or silence anyone - just add the perspective that there are a lot of feminists who don't buy in to the MN consensus and who don't post here because of responses like this. And I think that is representative of a wider issue GC is creating in feminism."

Personally I'd agree with this. I'm strongly inclined to be gender critical and want to read more but the MN boards honestly make me doubt my own gender critical instincts. Partly it's the way threads about other feminist issues get buried and ignored. Partly it's the outright enthusiasm for some really revolting woman-hating people because they have the right views on trans issues (it's never "I know Rod Liddle is a girlfriend-beating misogynistic cunt but hold your nose and hear him out on this one issue" but instead "ooh, go Rod! Rod nails it again!"). Partly it's the fact that I've seen people trying to promote all sorts of unpalatable positions (UKIP are the only party protecting women, supporters of serial abuser of women Donald Trump are victimised like GC feminists, we need to bring back Section 28, etc) on here using the giant trans shoehorn, which makes me suspect that you have a couple of far right sleepers on here who aren't quite who they claim to be. Partly it's the way that the language always leaps to the extreme. I think most people's experiences would tend towards "most trans women genuinely believe they are women but that can't be allowed to override women's web-based protections", whereas MN invariably seems to leap straight to "trans women are MRAs who are only doing it to gaslight women".

I know the response to this will be that I'm a man or an anti-feminist agitator. I'm not - I'm a lifelong feminist, GC sympathiser and admirer of a LOT of what you do on here. So I felt I had to say this even though I know I'll get a load of abuse for it.

Obviously that should be "sex-based protections" .