Should we campaign for even more women only spaces

[Trexical]

I've been lucky enough to spend the hottest day of the year at Hampstead womens pond in London and found myself queuing for well over an hour to get in.
In spite of there being a huge expanse of space on hampstead heath with many accessing the mixed and general ponds only the ladies pond had excessive queues and it highlighted just how in demand women only spaces were.
The atmosphere inside was incredible..women of all ethnicities, religions and ages freely able to walk around semi nude without fear of being photographed or gawped at.

I have rarely felt so at peace in a mass crowd but thought how many similar spaces are there in the uk for those who don't live in london and is this something worth campaigning for?

The ladies' pond is so much nicer than the mixed pond and has a nicer area to sit afterwards.
I love the atmosphere and that it's all women. I'm all for women only spaces.

I think the women's only pond at Hampstead is a very unique space, and something similar would be very hard to gain seeing as space in London is so extortionate. It only exists because there is also a men only pond and a mixed pond too.

It's not very "equality" to create a space exclusive for women without creating a similar space exclusive for men. So you'd need to campaign for women-only and men-only whatever-it-is spaces.

Obviously not against the idea, it's just practically very difficult.

I’d love it but yes, space would be the issue. Men can campaign for their own spaces though!

Re additional space Dpwm, I was thinking outside of London where land and prices are more reasonable.

I just never hear of the need for women only spaces being on the agenda (apart from the obvious need for DV shelters etc) yet judging by the number of young people I.e appearing under the age of 25 I think there is real demand possibly even more so after the furore of "me too".
I also agree that if men want dedicated spaces they should campaign for that but I know at my gym whilst we have womens only sauna and swim sessions no men opted to have male only sessions obviously preferring mixed sessions and to be fair I don't think men have the same worries as being ogled and photographed as women do.

Have you heard of the Womyn's Land movement and women's land trusts?

Womyn's Land incudes areas of land in the US, New Zealand and here in the UK too, bought by lesbian separatists where men aren't permitted. There's no reason why non-lesbian women couldn't crowd-fund to buy land and buildings and run them as women-only.

Re 'Have you heard of the Womyn's Land movement and women's land trusts?'

No never, but I will research and look into it, thanks

I think this is a nice idea, I can see two main issues potentially.

One is that you'd have to be prepared that it would also suggest that men's spaces are ok, and some people would find it controversial because of that.

The second would be, how many women are going o be interested in the kind of spece you are thinking about. I've found that a lot of women just aren't especially interested in that idea. It's not so much they have a problem with it but they'd not be keen to do it themselves. So you'd need enough to sustain the activity or space.

In UK, let's campaign to make all the Exceptions written in the Equality Act 2010 mandatory provision first and foremost. This way any service that wants to opt-out of such mandatory provision has to carry out an Equality Impact Assessment to determine why such a space should have licence to opt-out of that mandatory provision.

Schedule 3, section 26 [separate services for the sexes]; section 27 [single sex services] and section 28 [gender reassignment] are relevant here:

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/schedule/3

See also Schedule 23, section 3 [Communal accommodation]:

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/schedule/23

Part 14 [General exceptions], section 195 [Sport]

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/195

Part 2 Equality: key concepts
Chapter 1 Protected characteristics

11Sex
In relation to the protected characteristic of sex—
(a) a reference to a person who has a particular protected characteristic is a reference to a man or to a woman;
(b) a reference to persons who share a protected characteristic is a reference to persons of the same sex.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/11

Section 212 defines the two sexes as:

man is a male of any age

woman is a female of any age

After all this, how can anyone have any confusion? Seriously?
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/212

There's no reason why non-lesbian women couldn't crowd-fund to buy land and buildings and run them as women-only.

Yes and Brownfield sites are a great option too.

I know this is off topic, but the ladies pond at Hampstead Heath is not a single sex space.

I know what you refer to radicalstitch and I recall the furore last year when the corporation of London accepted that self identifying transgender individuals can use the women's pond.. a judgement which baffles me to be honest.

Notwithstanding that decision, the woman's pond has lost none of its charm and it was lovely to see how much camaraderie there was amongst women today.

but the ladies pond at Hampstead Heath is not a single sex space.

Yes that’s correct, it no longer is.

Saw on Twitter that there’s a suggestion that the new pond rules have already led to problems. Very sad (as well as predictable) if so.

twitter.com/davecurtis314/status/1153716610408026112?s=21

Sounds like a good idea Jacky.

That's grim reading as sadly I fear it will take something really bad to happen before the 'lessons will be learnt' brigade march in and attempt to retrofit what most logical people can see has potential for abuse.

I don't want this thread to get off topic but as I've also learned that many Jewish and religious women no longer attend the pond due to the changes made to the admission policy it would be useful to monitor and record the impact on these decision and again pester and bug our mps at every juncture.
The pond is a lovely space and a haven that should be protected.

Whenever and wherever men gather to discuss women's rights, women are never the subject of the debate - women are the football to be kicked around by the male debaters, the Mass debaters, from all angles.

The women's holiday Centre in Horton is really lovely and there are lots of wild swimming spots around there.
If anyone's in cumbria or Yorkshire neck or the woods.

The women's holiday Centre in Horton

I shall go and look this up. I was unaware of these places, but I love the idea of being in women only environments.

You can go wild swimming in Yorkshire? I’d love to give that a go.

Re. setting up more women’s spaces - I think the main obstacle is, how is a small privately/crowd-funded space able to cope with a legal challenge from an aggrieved transactivist in the present climate?

I have long wanted to set up a female only crafts society but I cannot afford to defend myself in court if a ‘woman’ with a penis wants to join and won’t take no for an answer. They litigate for funzies, look at JY and the flying lawyer.

In UK, let's campaign to make all the Exceptions written in the Equality Act 2010 mandatory provision first and foremost

I would agree with this. Take the decision away from individual organisations and make it a legal requirement to provide single sex spaces where people are vulnerable due to nakedness, unconsciousness, physical contact.

If organisations wish they can provide mixed sex spaces as well as not instead of.

In terms of land there are differences legally between Scotland and England in terms of people's right to roam. It would not be simple (possible?) to ban one sex or other from a large tract of land in Scotland. Bit easier in England if I recall rightly but I'm no expert on the subject.

AnyOldPrion oh that tweet is kinda what I expected to happen.

The right to roam thing.... I’m not British sorry so I don’t understand it completely. If women were to buy land and create I don’t know, a pond or a forest or something, surely it would be private? I know people ramble across farms and stuff but does that literally mean anywhere and everywhere?

Land access is a complex issue and the law varies Scotland and England are separate legal entities.

I'm Scottish myself so much more familiar with Scots Law but I am pretty sure land access is less rather than more permissive south of the border.

In terms of Scotland a quick google brings up this list of exceptions to access

Where do access rights not apply?

on 02 August 2008.

The main places where access rights are not exercisable are:
· Houses and other residences, and sufficient space around them to give residents reasonable privacy and lack of disturbance this will often be the garden area.
· Other buildings, works and structures, and the areas around them (curtilages).
· Land where crops are growing. Grass is not treated as a crop, except hay and silage in the late stages of growth. You can exercise access rights on field margins.
· Land next to and used by a school.
· Places, such as visitor attractions, which charge for entry.
· Land on which building or engineering works are being carried out, or which is being used for mineral working or quarrying.
· Land developed and in use for a particular recreational purpose, where the exercise of access rights would interfere with this use.
· Land set out for a particular recreational purpose or as a sports or playing field, when it is being used for that purpose and exercise of the rights would interfere with the use. But rights never apply to specially prepared sports surfaces golf greens, tennis courts or bowling greens

I would suggest women only areas may be permissible under this exception

Land developed and in use for a particular recreational purpose, where the exercise of access rights would interfere with this use.

But, it is the sort of thing that could potentially be challenged in court.

I would suggest women only areas may be permissible under this exception

That does sound like it. Especially if women grew crops around the borders

I think incorporating the exceptions into the equality act may be the way to go.
There are 2 things I notice when women are together... the first is a sense of total relaxation; not having to always check if you're showing too much flesh in a bikini for example and the 2nd is that when men aren't around we engage more with each other.
I wasn't even conscious how my behaviour changes around men and my 15 year old daughter who I took with me, picked up on it too.

This isn't about man hating, but I really think women have a lot to gain by creating men free social spaces and I'd ideally like to see a directory created where women could access and attend social events and just hang out together (there may already be lots of similar events so if so, please share) .

Re. setting up more women’s spaces - I think the main obstacle is, how is a small privately/crowd-funded space able to cope with a legal challenge from an aggrieved transactivist in the present climate?

^^ This is why we need to focus on Jacky's suggestion first:

In UK, let's campaign to make all the Exceptions written in the Equality Act 2010 mandatory provision first and foremost

I haven't got a clue how to even begin to do that, but I'd support any one who does.