I'm not convinced that feminism has helped the women it should have?

[soapona]

I think on these discussion boards and on my Facebook I see women. They don't insist on marriage so they partner remains married to the ex for years and year, they live together and I wonder what will happen should the man die. I also see women with no security living with men with no intentions of marrying and having children. Women moving in with men too soon. In the days gone by women would and could have insisted on commitment. So now the position for women is worse hanging round waiting for a proposal.

I know they don't have to I'm fairly wealthy and a single parent so have choices and always have. I don't have a lot to gain from marriage.

I'm not sure things have got better for women we are expected to do a lot now two incomes are the usual for a mortgage instead of one in the olden days . So it's a given women work, do the most childcare do we honestly think these thing will change when the power imbalance is there from the beginning?

Also the women marrying "beneath themselves", that's not the correct term but a man earning less and not likely to come into a decent inheritance. What is the point in getting married there if you're a women? Perhaps if the woman is wealthy to avoid inheritance tax for her children but other than that I don't know?

So would woman not be happier marrying the same or above and insisting on marriage early on, like it was a given in days gone by?

Surely Women are now in very risky positions due to this living together in a man's property. I see much more domestic abuse these days. I believe the stats are much higher with non married couples. Surely living together unmarried has been caused by equality and feminism and the very people feminists has been trying to help they've hindered.

Imnobody4

The vows arent mutual in the sense that they are equal, like say two lesbians marrying.

Women have a womb. RWW know this and they know this is what men need, because they don't have one themselves.

Women have a vagina and this is what punters want, although they may not need this in the same way that men need children, preferably sons.

That's why RWW protect the private sphere

I also just want to mention Dworkins total genius in light of the surrogacy issues that are going on now. She says that RWW know that if they don't hang onto the happy housewife private sphere that at some point women will become even more expendable than they already are. She was totally right, we are seeing it now with rich single men and rich gay men simply buying babies

I often wonder whether followers of extreme ideologies would've arrived at that viewpoint themselves had they not been exposed to the views of those which they revere. I'm sceptical that they would tbh.

In a business partnership, is one person selling something to another? Clearly not, even if they are in partnership because they have complimentary skills.

I suppose you might call that a transaction but it isn't selling something.

In some ways marriage is like a business partnership, so you might say it is a transaction. I would call it an economic arrangement. But usually marriage laws and customs go well beyond that and make it a matter of family.

So it's more like a relationship to your child or brother, in the sense that the ties are far more organic and the consequences for dissolving them are far more serious, in many cases even if there is the possibility of divorce you are still tied through children and the financial and emotional results may last a lifetime.
It's also the case that while in marriages that fail one person may well be more disadvantaged than the other, in other ways the material equality is (or has been, depending on when or where you look) a lot more radical than that in a business partnership, etc.

In the end, marriage isn't mainly a transaction, its a relationship.

And made no reply to the rampantunpunished abuseof women bymen.

I did. I said it wasn't rampant and gave statistics.

How many women can men murder every week before it becomes unacceptable? Asking for a friend.

I'm interested to hear your view first. I'll bet it's actually similar to mine. My point is pretty much the same as Goosefoot's - words have meaning and something is not 'rampant' if it isn't...well...rampant.

@Goosefoot I see what you're saying. A business partnership could also be considered a relationship. You're not choosing your brother or Aunt. When you are getting married it's a choice for both sides and in any relationship you have commodities, skills and good looks which are considered trade offs for money, having children, respectability or social climbing I suppose!

I'm not convinced that feminism has helped the women it should have?

I know we are 25 pages in but :-

Who are/were the women feminism should have helped and who are/were the women it should have just ignored?

You’re probably the only poster on here who is not a troll, Lass, so good luck with getting the actual thread topic discussed.

Who are/were the women feminism should have helped and who are/were the women it should have just ignored?

I'm guessing it's referencing the often relatively privileged women who seem obsessed with CEOs etc, as opposed to those at the margins of society (albeit this is a huge simplification of it).

Sakura184
The vows arent mutual in the sense that they are equal, like say two lesbians marrying.
Women have a womb. RWW know this and they know this is what men need, because they don't have one themselves.
And women need sperm.
Is 2 women marrying prostitution where one has more money than the other?

You’re probably the only poster on here who is not a troll

Ive been on here!!!

But otherwise...i agree with you completely

I think you have to be insincere to be a troll, don't you? You can be an ass without being a troll.

You can be an ass without being a troll

Thats not helping

But i do think the thread is beyond resuscitation

I've never been called a troll before! Well, butter my biscuits!

I have no idea how trying to parse out this marriage=prostitution idea that the OP is also engaged in is trolling.

If you want to get back to the original OP all I can say is that it sounds like it comes from a really insulated place. And I think OP needs to learn about feminism and gain a rudimentary understanding before ever making a claim that feminism hasn't helped the women that it 'should' have. Conjecture isn't fact.

Cool you guys do you. I get to go explain to a wealthy woman why she can't spend the funds of a company with impunity that she owns with another woman (who isn't wealthy). Takers gonna take.

I've been on MN for over 12 years and never been called a troll before!
But the thread has now deteriorated to the point where it's time for me to hide it.

Well we’re not allowed to call people trolls on MN.

I was being a little hyperbolic, but it’s a hyperbolic thread.

lord
?? You response was to killings!

Abuse and killing are two different things.

"About every 16 hours, a woman is shot and killed by a former or current partner in the USA."

This does not include strangers or co-workers - in just one country where records are accurate and public.

Have some heart or shame !

PLease lookup statistics of reported and unreported abuse and rapes in the UK AND AROUND THE WORLD which go unpunished.

Recently a woman who reported a man to the Police was fined for wasting Police time, she was later killed by that man.

Police do not tolerate "hate" speach against trans but hate speach agsinst women is tolerated - there is just too much of it so Police let it go unpunished officially

So in additon to above there is rampant unpunished physical abuse and killing of women by men.

Shame on you.

Goose
Thank you for qualified defence.

To the OP
sorry! but lord's other posts and pleading for women and men to get along here, was triggering to me.

I'll see my self out.

@LassOfFyvie

I believe feminism has not helped ordinary women. Frankly it's left woman confused. Is life better? What has it done to society? What has it done to men and their mental health? It's definitely is a factor in the breakdown of families. It definitely is factor with the increase in co habiting. We now have the expectation of working if you have children, it's not a choice. Not great for some women. We are in world surrounded by objectifying woman no way do men consider us equals.

“I believe feminism has not helped ordinary women.“

Well, apart from voting, abortion, employment rights, not being raped within marriage, domestic violence refuges.......what have feminists ever done for us?

monogamy still applies. Men insist on this because it's very difficult for them to ensure paternity.

Yes, insistence on monogomy is all down to men.
If it wasn't for them meanies forcing us to be monogamous, we could happily sleep around as nature intended

Bertrand, maternity care, health and safety at work, child benefit and tax credits.

I was talking about the UK - given the population size of the US, you'd expect there to be more incidents in absolute figures. But this is taking the thread even further from the OP so I'm not going to comment further.

@soapona I think it has helped on some level and certainly at the start. It would disingenuous to say that it hasn’t.
Women got the right to vote, to marry who they want and divorce who they want. They got the right to work and have their financial independence. They got the right to abortion and birth control.
As a pp said about their mum, all that HAS made a positive impact on women.

The issue I have is the latest movement that says because women are equal we should expect the same from women than we do from men (basically financially in their input for the family which used to be squarelynin thé somewhere of men) whilst not expecting ANY change (or just lip service) from men in the women sphere (all the child rearing, housekeeping etc....)
THAT for me is what has made things worse in the last 15~20 years.

The rest such as care in childbirth etc... just hasn’t changed. And it’s just very recently that medical research is starting to take women into account when testing medication etc...

Bottom line though is that there is no point expecting men to take responsibility and change things all on their own etc...
Change will, imo, come from the family and women upholding their boundaries and expecting to be treated with respect.
I also think this will be the work of several generations, just like it is with racism (which btw many women are also very bad at too)

“But this is taking the thread even further from the OP so I'm not going to comment further.“

Colour me surprised.

The issue I have is the latest movement that says because women are equal we should expect the same from women than we do from men (basically financially in their input for the family which used to be squarelynin thé somewhere of men) whilst not expecting ANY change (or just lip service) from men in the women sphere (all the child rearing, housekeeping etc....)

Who is "not expecting any change". What you are referring to is the personal arrangements within a relationship.

There are no rules saying men can't do these things or that women should not expect men to do these things.