I'm not convinced that feminism has helped the women it should have?

[soapona]

I think on these discussion boards and on my Facebook I see women. They don't insist on marriage so they partner remains married to the ex for years and year, they live together and I wonder what will happen should the man die. I also see women with no security living with men with no intentions of marrying and having children. Women moving in with men too soon. In the days gone by women would and could have insisted on commitment. So now the position for women is worse hanging round waiting for a proposal.

I know they don't have to I'm fairly wealthy and a single parent so have choices and always have. I don't have a lot to gain from marriage.

I'm not sure things have got better for women we are expected to do a lot now two incomes are the usual for a mortgage instead of one in the olden days . So it's a given women work, do the most childcare do we honestly think these thing will change when the power imbalance is there from the beginning?

Also the women marrying "beneath themselves", that's not the correct term but a man earning less and not likely to come into a decent inheritance. What is the point in getting married there if you're a women? Perhaps if the woman is wealthy to avoid inheritance tax for her children but other than that I don't know?

So would woman not be happier marrying the same or above and insisting on marriage early on, like it was a given in days gone by?

Surely Women are now in very risky positions due to this living together in a man's property. I see much more domestic abuse these days. I believe the stats are much higher with non married couples. Surely living together unmarried has been caused by equality and feminism and the very people feminists has been trying to help they've hindered.

Endofthedays yes exactly!

I don't think everyone does accept what Dworkin says, she's always been a very polarising figure, including among feminists. She's also done a lot to convince other women that feminism has nothing to say to them.

I think a lot of her comments are basically well written bs where she projects her own thoughts and feelings onto all women, or over-generalisations, or involve a supreme lack of nuance, and they are often complete historical fabrications and that shouldn't be seen as unimportant in these days of people claiming that material reality isn't relavent.

I would certainly agree that marriage is in a fundamental way an economic structure, in fact it's THE economic structure, the oikos. That's the truth that makes her comment about marriage being prostitution seem somewhat plausible, yes, there is an exchange on that level. But saying all marriage is prostitution is like saying every business partnership is just someone being exploited.

Surely in joint fertility cases the doctor can share information?

At the least he could tell the woman the sperm wasn’t viable.

Yes, he would probably say it was something on the male side and leave it at that.

I suppose this may have come up the other way round already, I'm sure it must have.

So it's ok for Dworkin to say it but not for me

No

Thats not what im saying lovely

I dont think its ok for dworkin OR you to say it...obviously its ok for you to say it 😀 i just dont agree with it

I don’t believe that people who think dworkin was right to say that would go for your jugular...(not that anyone did)

Endofthedays

How can I have a respectful discussion with people who call me names like manhater and misandrist (and the rest of it) . Why should the respect go one way?

If you disagree that marriage is prostitution, that's fine, you don't need to declare that the woman saying it "can't be a feminist" .

And then turn around and say oh but Dworkin is ok

I am very surprised that the people calling me a manhater think Dworkin is ok, that's all.

We also have a good understanding now that coercive control in marriages sometimes leads to men prostituting their wives or partners, so saying marriage itself is prostitution is conflating two different issues.

It’s maybe already come up in cases where the husband was infertile and didn’t want the wife to know?

Endofthedays

there's a discussion to be had whether marriage is prostitution, maybe. I liked Goosefoot's post below.
But You don't need to tell me I can't be a feminist, must be thick, a troll etc etc and then act like you know what Dworkin is all about. It's kind of a mind fuck.

If you disagree that marriage is prostitution, that's fine, you don't need to declare that the woman saying it "can't be a feminist" .

And then turn around and say oh but Dworkin is ok

Well that good cos I haven’t done that

But you are lumping us all together and accusing all of us of doing it

Or at least how that comes across

Anyhoo...im gonna sit in the sun for a bit so not ignoring anyone

I didn’t do any of those things Sakura.

sakura

People don't call you a manhater because you agree with Dworkin, particularly. Though lots of people think she had such terrible experiences with men she was unable to really relate to them as people.

They say it because of the kinds of things you consistently say about men, or because of untrue statements you make in order to justify those statements. I'm not saying you are telling lies, but that you've been inclined to believe false things because they seemed to support your difficulties with men.

It comes across really strongly in many different discussions.

I don't think everyone does accept what Dworkin says, she's always been a very polarising figure, including among feminists. She's also done a lot to convince other women that feminism has nothing to say to them.

She’s also been massively misrepresented and misunderstood- like the lie that she said heterosexual sex is always rape, she did not say that.

I wonder if her marriage to her gay friend at the end was prostitution? Dworkin had a lot of good stuff to say, but was far from perfect.

Also, quoting Dworkin’s work isn’t the issue people have with our new poster, Sakura. Some really disgusting crazy things were said over the last few days that weren’t about Dworkin or her thoughts. Stand by your own words, don’t deflect to her as some kind of shield.

Also, Dworkin didn't invent the "marriage is prostitution" theory. She was her one of many feminists who agreed with it

I do stand by my own thoughts and words, completely.

I think it's really disgusting to have more of a problem with a woman calling out men, and to try and shut her up with name calling, than you have with men themselves.

And to suggest that the calling out is hating, but the acts of femicide themselves aren't womanhating?

Or that manhating online is equivalent to what men do to women ?

Or that the femicide is an equivalent to manhating?

That's true, @EndofDays. The doctor wouldn't need to tell her why the sperm wasn't viable.

@Goosefoot, you're right that the opposite scenario probably does come up occasionally.

What does her being married have to do with anything? I've been married.

Nobody is blaming prostitutes or wives for doing the things they do. That would be womanhating no?

sakura

You are making false equivalencies here.

It's perfectly possible and logical, and even good, to be critical of untruths and slanders about anyone, whatever their sex. The fact that men do X is not an excuse for claiming they do y, nor does it mean we have to accept false or illogical explanations for x.

People are not concerned about being blamed, they don't think what you are saying is true.

It's a fairly gross misrepresentation about human relationships. As if someone said mothers only have and take care of children in order to exploit them.

Although it's true I know some feminists blame wives, I'm not one of them

Well I think it is true that marriage is prostitution, I think it's just a different, more respectable, route for a woman selling her sexuality. I think she has less freedom than the prostitute but is arguably safer. However DV stats suggest that she is disappointed that men don't follow through on the deal she strikes with them, that they will protect her from male violence

My partner and I cohabit in my property. I bought it before I met him. I think it as our home, but in reality should things go wrong it's in my name and I shall be staying here. In our situation it's him who is unprotected.

Whats living with a man then?

Having children and staying at home to look after them and then going back to work part time while your partner ‘supports’ you

So marriage without the bit of paper

One assumes its the same...as its actually the same

You are making false equivalencies here.

Yes indeed.

I think it's really disgusting to have more of a problem with a woman calling out men, and to try and shut her up with name calling, than you have with men themselves.

Again, making your own conclusions and assumptions.

You’re being held to account for some gross generalisations, misrepresentation of feminist work and of women themselves. You’re not ‘calling men out’, as you say. You’re doing much much more than that. As for your claim that women here have more of an issue with women calling out men than men, that assumption and generalisation is false. I have an issue with certain things regardless of who says or does them. You don’t get a free pass as a woman or as someone claiming to be a feminist.