Make-up and nails on a 5 YO

[donquixotedelamancha]

Would appreciate some advice, oh wise vipers:

DD5 really likes 'girly' stuff. DW and I try hard to to counter the deluge of pink/pretty/nice but we are outgunned. We've had a couple of arguments because I feel that DW allows things from her family which make me uncomfortable.

An Aunty has asked to take DD to have her nails done, so I think we need to resolve the discussion.

We don't want to be puritanical and have a 16YO turn bright orange from rebelliousness but I think allowing it too young just reinforces the problem.

How permissive should we be?

I think I would draw the line at taking a 5yo to a salon.

Painting nails every now and again at home isn't a massive deal. All my three DS's liked doing this once in a while when they were little but a paid salon visit is a bit much. Gender stereotyping aside I don't see the point for such a young child.

I understand your point about not wanting to encourage a teenage backlash but my DD was quite the tomboy when she was young. Little interest in 'girly' activities until she turned 13 and spent the next four or five years a day-glo orange with hair straighteners permanently glued to her palm. She then grew out of this too and now only thinks about make up etc..for the odd special occasion (like most of us).

I suppose it's trying to get that balance of not having enticingly 'forbidden' stuff but also not reinforcing gendered behaviour as standard.

Good luck!

I knew a group of people who were dead set on the idea that gendered toys and clothes were terrible. So much so that one of them was given a very nice but pink toy for her daughter ,and was unsure whether it was ok to give it to her. She even considered painting it a different colour.

The same group of women were happy for their boys to have pink stuff. They were also sure that some boys had vaginas and some girls penises.

I don't think any longer that having some cultural markers for masculinity or femininity are a bad thing, and I suspect they will happen even if we do try and avoid them. It's just a social convention, no one was ever hurt by wearing pink or doing their nails. It's better to just not take them too seriously. I've even wondered if it isn't preferable to have a few of these things that are essentially unimportant as we (generally we) may always be moved to express sex differences through a social medium.

Spending time with an aunt is probably far more important than learning it's wrong to be interested in girly things.

My friend has a nail salon she won't take little girls she has been asked loads of times she doesn't think 5ýr olds need pampered for a start. You can say no draw a line.

Her Aunty can take her to the park or for an ice cream and spend time with her .

no one was ever hurt by wearing pink or doing their nails

I don't agree with that. I think the expectations on women's appearance are harmful and I want DD to be as well equipped as possible to make her own choices.

Spending time with an aunt is probably far more important than learning it's wrong to be interested in girly things.

That's a fine point. I had planned to go NC with my sister and burn DD's dolls. So you are saying that would be bad?

I suppose it's trying to get that balance of not having enticingly 'forbidden' stuff but also not reinforcing gendered behaviour as standard.

That is exactly it.

I don't bother at all with make up and hair but DD at 5 was obsessed with make up and nails. I let her go with it on the basis that it was improving manual dexterity for writing and that made me a good parent and that she'd get over it quicker. She had her own cheap make up palettes and went out looking proper horrow show a few times. At 8 she's not very interested in it but can apply it far better than I do. The other thing is although very girly in appearance she is adventurous. She climbed in indoor walls in harness and frilly tutu. I think what she took from it all is you can look however you want but it doesn't restrict what you do or how you behave.

I feel your conflict OP. I try to by either neutral toys, or a mix of stuff and pool it so everyone can play with it. Both my kids like dolls, trucks, and everything in between, but neither are in school/ nursery yet so I have quite a lot of control. I draw my line at things which I think are limiting for them, like having hairstyles that get in their eyes/ need lots of grooming, or wearing clothes that it's hard to play in (like frilly dresses). My goal is for them to be able to move and play as freely as possible without thinking about their appearance.

The fact that female beauty norms, which do harm and limit women in their own right, are being marketed back to us as empowering/ fun/ treats, aspirational past times, or necessary in order to "spend time together" is a problem I think. Not only are we being socially groomed into feeling like we have to look a certain way, we also have to pay through the nose for it. And 5 is too young in any case in my opinion. But spending time with an aunt is lovely, so why not suggest an alternative like lunch or the cinema?

I have adult dds 1was the sterotypical tomboy" i hate thatterm anyway the other thought unicorns shit glitter it is just tryi g to geta balance . I think drawing the line at nails done at 5 is age appropriateness saying no without vetoing girly stuff^ introducing other toys and interests as she grows up you will find a balance ime.

I think some young children (of both sexes) enjoy it as a sort of craft activity at that age. Painting is painting whether you are doing it on a canvas, scribbling on your arm or messing about with lipstick and polish.

Obviously media and societal driven gendered expectations get layered on to that at some point with little girls picking up the message they 'should' be doing this and little boys that they 'should not'.

It's a bit sad really because as Mind said above how you look or what you enjoy shouldn't be a restriction on what you achieve or your worth.

But spending time with an aunt is lovely, so why not suggest an alternative like lunch or the cinema?

I did- I would never limit time with her Aunt. I'm getting some push back from DW and DSis, so wanted to check my thinking.

Are you a samesex couple ? Or are you a man I'm asking because they might think oh you are a man what do you know or something? Btw nail bars are full of fumes i wouldn't want a 5 year old sitting getting her nails done

Sitting in a nail salon*

Have they actually checked that a salon will do this? I would think most reputable places would not allow children under a certain age.

I wouldn't want a 5yo girl to have her nails done. Not only is it sex-stereotyping I think it's also inappropriate sexualisation to have salon-done nails.

Having your nails done is limiting

False nails (god forbid) would impede her manual dexterity

Painted nails-you have to limit what you do to avoid chipping them

So on that basis it would be a no from me

For the same price they could go to a pottery painting place. Lots of colour and creativity and nothing to limit her

I don't think it is suitable either.
I would be ok with some of those stickers she can put on.
Maybe suggest another fun trip to do with auntie or simply ask her to come up with an idea.
There was also some interesting advice from NHS I read at the hospital.
Something about how many injuries to the bed nail they see and the dangers but I cannot find the link

Surely it would be boring for a 5 year old to get her nails done? Sitting still for a long period?
I also don’t like the message of being/looking pretty being the most desirable goal. & the fumes.

I feckin hate the idea of pampering even the word makes me cringe in all in anyways!!

Take her go-karting or go Ape or something as a counter balance (but you have to make it enjoyable).

I would have loved nails done at five (along with high heels and blue eyeshadow) but anything like that was very strongly 'discouraged' (at all ages) due to it being vain, loose etc. I let my girls have what they wanted and they have left home leaving drawers of the stuff (presents) unopened.

I don't do my nails or wear make up or anything but DD has always liked her nails painted. I do them for her if she wants during school holidays, fingers and toes. But no way would she be going to a salon. I think 5 is too young.

To catch up some of the questions asked:

Are you a samesex couple ? Or are you a man I'm asking because they might think oh you are a man what do you know or something?

I'm a man, which is why I have deferred to DW's experience. DW is not dismissive, she just often agrees to something and then forgets. There have been a few things like this and so I think we need a clear agreement now. Aunties are likely to ignore anything other than a very firm line.

Do you and dw do your nails and make up?

Yes. I'm fine with her having toy make up and nails and she likes to practice on me. I think my line is her having 'proper' makeup and polish and wearing it to go out.

Surely it would be boring for a 5 year old to get her nails done? Sitting still for a long period?

She'd bloody love it because it's being framed as a treat/reward and time spent with Aunt. It's that reinforcement that bothers me.

False nails (god forbid) would impede her manual dexterity

Just salon painted. False nails would be a hard no- I agree with all the objections given.

I don't think it's the action that's as much a problem as the limitations placed on girls by performing femininity.

I agree. We do a lot of active things together and that side is generally effective. I feel the expectations and the limitations go hand in hand.

Until now I have been happy to unpick the toxicity but not be restrictive e.g.

• She has been told that girls cannot wear blue, we find her nice blue clothes and look at pictures of boys in pink.
• She gets told that girls can't be Scientists so we go to Science fair and talk to all the female Scientists.

I'm not sure it's enough.

donquixote

I'm not sure it's enough.

Nothing parents do is enough compared to the sex-stereotyping pressures exerted by the rest of the world, but I think we owe it to our daughters to do as much as we possibly can to counter them.

I'd not be keen on this. Five years old seems very young for this sort of thing. I get what you mean about it being presented as a treat. I wouldn't want a very young girl to think sitting around but having perfect nails is aspirational. Id want them to have nails full of sand, soil, glue. There's a big difference between daubing some of your mum's old nail varnish all over yourself to having this impression of womanhood presented in an uncritical way to such a young girl.

I'd be tempted to ask the aunt to pick a more age appropriate activity.

As a beautician, I offer a free 'mini mani' for young children, which is literally a light buff of nails and painting on a thin clear coat to make them look shiny. I've had boys and girls come with their mums to have this. Maybe there is a similar thing round near yourself?