Make-up and nails on a 5 YO

[donquixotedelamancha]

Would appreciate some advice, oh wise vipers:

DD5 really likes 'girly' stuff. DW and I try hard to to counter the deluge of pink/pretty/nice but we are outgunned. We've had a couple of arguments because I feel that DW allows things from her family which make me uncomfortable.

An Aunty has asked to take DD to have her nails done, so I think we need to resolve the discussion.

We don't want to be puritanical and have a 16YO turn bright orange from rebelliousness but I think allowing it too young just reinforces the problem.

How permissive should we be?

I wouldn't have a problem with this. Imo it is all about balance. She can do this this time and next time do something more active / fun with her aunt.
We should be teaching our girls that being a woman can mean many things and they will get to choose what they do and who they want to be. So if one day that means getting your nails painted and the next that means climbing trees that's fine by me.
As a parent I don't actively encourage the girly girl thing but if my dd wants to do make up etc (rare), Im ok with it. in this instance as a one off with her aunt I would allow it.
I think making something 'forbidden' is likely to make it even more desirable.

I don't agree with that. I think the expectations on women's appearance are harmful and I want DD to be as well equipped as possible to make her own choices.

Yes, expectations can be damaging. I would say I take that more seriously than many people on this board who are hesitant to actually tell women they should think carefully about what their own choices say.

But that doesn't mean all social conventions around dress or appearance are damaging. I would not consider having nails done one of them unless perhaps you are thinking from the angle of the nail salon workers. Nails are very much an optional choice for women who want to express their femininity, which is not a bad thing. Femininity can be very nice. It's not dangerous for your body, its not something women are obligated to spend a lot on, or spend all their time on. The same is true of pink - women are not required to wear it, and in fact if anything it's probably not considered a usual choice for an adult woman in a professional setting and many don't like it at all. There are pretty much zero conclusions drawn by society if a woman does not want to wear pink, no one even thinks about it.

One of the pitfalls of trying not to be totally inundated with pink princess stuff is that girls get the sense that girly things are somehow lesser, or that they are only ok for boys. Those are confusing messages.

Anyway, chances are that a girl that loves girly pink stuff at 5 will love black and AC/DC at ten, or Harry Potter, at 10, and think pink and getting nails done are for babies.

That's a fine point. I had planned to go NC with my sister and burn DD's dolls. So you are saying that would be bad?

??

It was sarcasm Goosefoot

Painted nails-you have to limit what you do to avoid chipping them

It's not a bad lesson though, that it doesn't last unless you want to be careful.

Nope to a nail salon.

Yes to Aunt painting her nails at home, maybe a mini pamper party doing hair and a face mask.

It was sarcasm

I guess.
I don't see what the point is of asking a question and being tetchy about the answers you get.

I was convinced as a little girl that girly stuff was weak and stupid because of stuff like this. Contrary to what many people think it wasn't a pro-woman viewpoint, or even one that was about accepting differences.

I tried quite hard to resist too much sex stereotyping with my DD (now 4) but she was drawn to pink and tutus etc from about 3. I remember allowing my mother to paint her toenails but insisting she couldn't do her fingers when she was about 2. My mum thought it was fine as she had always done my niece and nephews... one nephew loves getting his nails painted til he was about 6.

I've now come to the conclusion that it's fine, as long as it's just one of many things she likes/does. Since starting school she has occasionally said things about boys/girls that worry me as they are hugely stereotypes, and I brush it off and offer alternative comments.

I also have a son, nearly 2, and when I painted my DD's nails the other day, he held his hands out too, so he is also currently sporting sparkly nails. He also likes to play with hair bobbles and jewellery.

I totally understand the comments about not wanting to impede playing so false nails would, to me, be absolutely ridiculous. But I don't think nail polish impedes anything as my DD couldn't care less when it scuffs off (usually the same day it is put on!)

I think I would be concerned about actual salon visits and the idea of framing 'pampering' as a treat because it adds importance to it, and I would prefer my children not to think of these things as important. They may well end up loving that sort of thing when they're older, or at least going through a phase of it, but when they're little I'm only comfortable if it's a passing bit of fun rather than a special activity of any kind.

Full disclosure... both my children also LOVE to play with my make-up but they don't distinguish between actual make-up and colouring themselves in with a felt tip. This morning my DD coloured her whole face red and was extremely pleased with herself. Much scrubbing, a swim, and a shower later and she has gone to bed slightly pink still

Can we remember she is 5 not 10 or 15 but 5 years old she doesnt need to be going to a nail salon to practise being a woman she is barely out of toddlerhood !

Personally I would not take a child of 5 in a nail salon. The staff wear face masks for a reason and the environment is not something I see as appropriate for a 5yr old.

Letting her aunt paint her nails and take her out somewhere I think would be more appropriate and also better for bonding. Also all for letting the nails chip and get messy.

Far too young. If it's something she wants to do when she's 14 then let her. Until then she can play at nail salons, not actually go to one!

The invisible women book discussed the toxic chemical mix that exists in salons. Nails at home only.
No matter how hard to try, we are surrounded by people with strong sterotypes built in. The only way is acknowledged and provide alternatives
But wtf that girls are not sc8entists. Is that from school? I would be raising the roof. Asking what they are doing to counteract such vile behaviours.

OP, why not use the toxic fumes argument as your get out clause here? That way, you are not scorning the aunt’s sexist choices, simply being concerned for DD’s health.
She can hardly insist on exposing your child to toxic organic chemical vapour, once you have pointed this out! Be ready with alternative suggestions for a day out that is neither sexist nor toxic.

Yes go down the fume route and get her Aunt to buy the peel off polish from Claires im sure it smells of blueberries !

Sorry have only read first few posts, I would use the reason of the fumes in a nail salon. They smell horrendous even walking past the door and I wouldn't want a child to have to breathe that in. Not going to do them any good. Completely agree with you on the gender stereotyping side of things too OP

Hang on, someone told your daughter that girls can’t wear blue or be scientists? I wouldn’t let that one go. I’d be tempted to beat the culprit around the head with a life-sized model of Margaret Thatcher. Wearing one of her blue suits.

I think it's okay if it forms part of dress up and fun, but not if it is considered/sold as prettifying or girly.

So sparkles, scented, colour changing nail polish or funny nail transfers of unicorns or animals are okay in school holidays. Face paint as a lion/butterfly but not mascara. Does that make sense?

My ds and dd both got their nails painted in salons at around that age. It was a novelty and a bit of fun. By 8 both of them had lost interest.

Hang on, someone told your daughter that girls can’t wear blue or be scientists?

Ah, but the key is who is the someone? I don't let it go when I catch it but most of the overt drivel seems to come from other kids when I ask.

However: DD has always wanted to be a doctor. She dressed and played as a doctor every day, she talked about what type (she's decided surgeon or vet) and asked loads of questions. I walk into nursery and (as usual) she is dressed in full outfit, with face mask and stethoscope, performing thoracic surgery on a stuffed dog. A little boy is next to her and she is saying 'nurse, hand me the scalpel'. Her key worker (who must hear her talk about being a doctor 20 times a day) turns to me and says 'aww, she's definitely going to be a nurse one day'.

Nothing wrong with being a nurse but grrrrr!

Ah, but the key is who is the someone?

This Greer

My DD since DS was born and was in ITU for first 2 1/2 weeks decided she wanted to be a Dr and still wants to. Some f*cker grrr told her she should be a nurse. Nothing wrong with nurses but if my DD wants to be a doctor, her preference being paediatric or gynae, then she should not be told to be a nurse instead Grrr

Makes me so angry but I don't know who is telling her this carp.

A lot of boys at DDs primary seem to reinforce sexism, e.g. telling her she couldn't do stuff like martial arts because she was a girl. But more of it just seemed absorbed from the general culture in school, DD in reception was telling me girls couldn't be leaders, couldn't stand up and talk, weren't good at maths. I bought 'Good Night Stories for Rebel Girls' she loves the books and they gave her a range of role models.