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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Woman seeking others to practice her sexology techniques on

68 replies

thatdamnedwoman · 21/07/2019 19:27

Sorry for the weird subject header but this is bizarre...

A friend of mine, a young lesbian, is a member of a lesbian social group which has been a real life-line for her. She's made friends and received a lot of support thanks to the women in the group. I'm not part of it but I know some of the members and they're good, positive, supportive women.

Today my young acquaintance received a PM from one of the group whom she has met and whom I'll call L. L is apparently training to be a holistic sexologist and is looking for volunteers on whom she can practice. It involves breathing techniques and intimate touching, including anal massage. The message makes it clear that L will be fully clothed and rubber-gloved up at all times and that she will not be providing emotional support or sexual satisfaction: this is about her learning how peoples' bodies work and what makes some people feel sexual. L welcomes everyone to volunteer regardless of sex, gender or body.

I seem to remember a thread a few weeks ago about sex cults where women were lured in by the promise of yoga and breathing techniques and discovering their sexuality, only to be exploited. Alarm bells are ringing loudly.

The young lesbian who received this invitation asked me what I thought and I've told her to say no and tell some of the older women what's happened. The whole thing — the imbalance of power, the activity going on behind closed doors, the 'but you volunteered for anal massage so you can't complain' aspect of it horrify me. And then I began wondering about the person who sent it. They are a member of a lesbian group and one presumes they are female and a lesbian — but who really knows?

Anyone encountered anything like this elsewhere? Do I need to flag it up to the group or is this kind of intimate touching training perfectly legit?

OP posts:
ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving · 22/07/2019 22:30

hoodathunkit I'm always amazed by your encyclopedic knowledge of this stuff. While we have you on this thread, do dolls (like, creepy collections of china dolls) ring any bells re: sex cults/ sex abusers? Specifically dolls which are said to be possessed by the souls of the dead. Just trying to join dots with some unrelated sick shit I read about the other day.

hoodathunkit · 23/07/2019 09:09

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving

Haunted items, including creepy "haunted" dolls, are products sold and advertised on eBay and other sites by various grifters and some dangerous organised criminal networks that target the most vulnerable people in society.

The most ruthless of these networks operate by selling items so ridiculous that only someone with a serious mental illness would put their hands in their pocket to buy them.

So, for example, a networks offers a cheap item of costume jewellery, something that would cost £1.50 from a charity shop, made of brass and coloured glass. Or a doll that the seller claims is haunted by the spirit of a long dead, murdered child. The doll is broken and in poor condition and also cost £1.50 from a charity shop.

The seller makes a video complete with creepy music where they create a narrative for their item, the jewellery contains the spirit of a djinn or vampire or something and the doll's history of being haunted by a murdered child is described in gory detail.

Vulnerable people see the video and feel that their life is not complete without said djinn containing ring / brooch or haunted doll.

Implicit within the purchase of these items is the promise of "transformation".

You buy the jewellery / doll and you get to develop a relationship with the supernatural entity inhabiting the item and this transforms your life.

Astute readers will understand that through history criminals and unethical entrepreneurs have made money by selling various items that promise to "transform", whether it is a product that changes a skinny man into a Mr Universe, a moisturiser that reverses ageing, a cream that enlarges the penis or prolongs erection, a cream that whitens or tightens the vagina, a cream that turns dark skin light, a pill that changes light skin tanned, a pill that makes vaginas smell of roses, a pill that turns fat people into slim people, you name it, whatever human anxiety exists there is a snake oil product to remedy it via a magical transformative process.

Since the start of the millennia lifestyle television programmes have had the process of "transformation" at their core. Makeovers, makeunders, ugly house to beautiful house, how to look good naked, various programmes focussing on weight loss, SAS Who Dares Wins, so many programmes focus on the before and the after, the ordinary, ugly, person / house before and the money shot being the final "reveal" where the once dowdy, plain Janes strut their stuff respite with new surgery enhanced face and body and designer clothes.

Anyone who has studied depth psychology will be familiar with the concept of the "transformational object".

The transformational object is the magical thing that transforms everything and solves all problems.

In advertising it is common to show a family in a state of fragmentation, kids all off to their friends or their rooms, nobody wants to sit down together until the mother crumbles an Oxo cube into the meat juices at which point the kids' nostrils twitch, they smile. Dad decides not to go to the pub, the kids no longer want to go to their room, the whole family sits down together smiling and happy thanks to the transformative powers of Oxo.

In advertisements for skin whitening cream transformation object promises to end racism not by addressing and challenging racism or by white people stopping being racist but by magically transforming dark skin into light skin.

The cults I have been warning people about here use collective unconscious fantasies about transformation to turn vulnerable women into "goddesses". The transformative process involves a pseudo-educational "empowerment" process in which women's consciousness is transformed and women feel completely transformed. Then they go on to become new age sex workers, honey traps, blackmailers and recruiters of more women. See Jeffrey Epstein, NXIVM and a zillion other similar cultish arrangements where vulnerable females (and sometimes males) are "transformed" via a bait and switch process. Epstein promised to transform the lives of his victims as did Raniere. The "training" the women and girls received promoted to liberate them but enslaved them. This is how it works.

Back to the creepy dolls issue

So you have extremely vulnerable, often psychotic, people spending silly amounts of money on cheap jewellery and dolls that they believe are haunted or contain vampires / unicorns / whatever.

Obviously someone in the midst of a florid psychosis is more likely to experience a connection with a unicorn or whatever than someone who is not psychotic.

With this in mind the most ruthless of the criminals selling these items harvest contact details from their victims and persuade them to join online groups for collectors of haunted items.

Then the process of familial alienation starts. In the groups an insular echo chamber exists in which the powers that be conspire to prevent magical special people from bonding with unicorns and other supernatural beings by prescribing anti-psychotic meds. Obviously in order to better bond with the supernatural beings people have to stop taking their meds.

For details of what happens next I would recommend this blog

creepyhollowsawareness.wordpress.com/about/

I hope this helps

DanaPhoenix · 23/07/2019 09:24

Yes it sounds dodgy as. Didn’t that NVXIIM Cult (however it was spelled) start of with breathing relaxation stuff. I listened to a podcast about it.

Bookmarking as busy right now but really interested to read all the links Hoodathunkit has posted as you seem really well informed and I’ve only had time for a quick scan of the thread.

hoodathunkit · 23/07/2019 09:29

Just for clarification...

Selling cheap tat for silly money is obviously good work if you can get it and lack the moral compass that prohibits many people from operating this kind of business.

This kind of business is sometimes only about selling cheap items for big money, however the bigger businesses operating in this way are actually focussed on enslaving vulnerable people and using them as human assets for criminal purposes.

The bait and switch MO is simply a strategy for identifying and recruiting extremely vulnerable people for use as slave labour, sex workers, shills, honey traps, intel / compromat harvesters, ass kickers, etc.

Of course should some extremely vulnerable person end up realising what has happened and try to seek help from law enforcement, stories of haunted dolls, unicorns, vampires and evil conspiracies are likely to result in the victim not being taken seriously and likely they will end up in a mental hospital.

Unfortunately people who are mentally unwell are very easy to manipulate and to abuse with impunity. This has to stop.

Should a mentally ill person commit a serious crime while under the influence of these networks they are likely to be a patsy that protects the real criminals from scrutiny.

Re the "transformational object" and the personal and collective fantasies and delusions associated with it, also see Brexit and the transgender agenda.

hoodathunkit · 23/07/2019 09:36

Didn’t that NVXIIM Cult (however it was spelled) start of with breathing relaxation stuff. I listened to a podcast about it.

NXIVM trainings incorporated many elements of the Human Potential movement which was heavily influenced by scientology and was the birthplace of various neo-tantric sex cults and various LGATs including EST.

"Breathwork" is a red flag for abusive cults.

Of course breathing is important and when people are stressed and distressed their breathing changes and this can have a detrimental effect on health.

Learning to breathe deeply can be important to learn how to relax and de-stress, however it can also lead to altered states of consciousness and can induce hallucinations and false memories, including false memories of incest and sexual abuse.

Just like touching / massage, it can lower personal boundaries and leave people vulnerable to coerce control.

I would love to say more but am pushed for time

DanaPhoenix · 23/07/2019 12:07

Thanks for responding. Take all the time you need. I find this topic incredibly fascinating and I’m about to embark on checking out all your links. I suspect I’ll be a while.

FlapsMagazine · 23/07/2019 14:31

Hoodathunkit, happy to share, but I'll be vague on a couple of particulars as I doubt either of the women would want anything too specific shared. Also apologies for not getting back sooner.

I knew of this particular group through many friends of friends, they organised a lot of fundraisers that were essentially all night warehouse parties for the local hippy community. My knowledge of the OTO was pretty basic at the time, I knew about Crowley, chaos majik and various other aspects, but it was actually someone I knew who'd been a member of the OTO in America, as well as a Free Mason, who filled in a bit more detail. He said that the premise was basically the same, the Masonic/OTO power lies in the secret and the secret lies in the power. The 'secret' essentially being the power and potential of human thought for real life manifestation and mental alchemy, particularly the power of human thought at the point of orgasm... especially through anal sex. As you can imagine I made a face that could launch a thousand gifs, but as it was all concenting adults I wasn't too fussed. That was until a wee while afterwards when I noticed the leader of this local groups making posts on Facebook page of a girl I knew. At the time I didn't know who he was, but the messages read like a groomers handbook, especially as while I didn't know her very well, I was aware of her mental health issues and there had been a few very public examples of her not really holding it together. They were essentially lots of incoherent philosophical babble, coupled with 'you're so smart and special, most people don't get this', 'ignore your friends, they don't understand' 'we have a special bond type stuff'. It seems weird for a few reasons; one she had a boyfriend and it was obvious he was hitting on her, this was all very public and gushing and noone seemed to be joining in, either to agree or disagree (with hindsight I realise that she probably didn't have many real friends willing to question this) and secondly, the stuff was all so bloody childish, really silly stuff about questioning percieved realities and social stigma, but we're talking GCSE level of debate and critique. Within a few weeks she was going to events with this guy, being really horrible to her boyfriend when he wanted to accompany her (not a great relationship from what I could gather, but at least he seemed to want to make sure she was safe) and after her 'initiation' she broke up with him entirely, fell off the radar and appeared back on the scene a few weeks later, guant and on anti depressants. This girl was only on the peripherals of my social scene, so I don't know exactly what happened, but the same guy came into my social sphere once again not long after a friend separated from her partner, a really abusive guy. She was in a really low place and was hanging around with another girl I knew, who also knew the first girl. Turns out she was essentially this guy's bottom bitch, his 'chief' wife (he is permitted several apparently) and was encouraging women to join them for events and festivals. Some of these were quite innocent celebrations, drama school types playing out neo pagan shows for the soltice and the like (some puppetry too!), but others were just orgies and sex festivals that involved everything from group sex to peeing on each other. These were nearly always in isolated rural areas and my friend was dependent on the people who drove her there (they absolutely insisted, and phones were removed for "privacy' reasons) and couldn't leave without them. My mate was incredibly lonely at the time and seemed swept off her feet by both these people, at first she seemed giddy and bragging at all the 'daring' things she'd tried, including a fuck load of hallucingenics. I told her that I thought much of this sounded dodgy as fuck and she needed to wind her neck in as her dick stain of an ex would use exactly these things against her in court as he was already gunning for full custody of their daughter. She stopped talking to me about it and for a while I really thought she was pissed at me, but eventually she saw sense, thanks in part to being a bit older and wiser and having a few friends like me speak up.

I do feel like I did right by my friend, however I carry a tremendous amount of guilt with regards to the first girl. I noticed what was happening and made a few passive aggressiveness remarks, but didn't know her well enough to say what I really thought and should have. She might not have heeded, but I imagine if I'd just posted on those Facebook messages about how creepy the whole thing appears to outsiders, someone a bit closer to her might have intervened.

WellThisIsShit · 24/07/2019 11:42

It’s a very strange world, ugh! So many of the language flags could be read completely innocently - I would have, until stumbling upon these threads.

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving · 24/07/2019 23:12

Thanks hoodathunkit that maps quite well onto the horror show I've been reading about.

SleepWarrior · 24/07/2019 23:42

Bloody hell Hoodathunkit, how have you ended up knowing so much about these dark goings on?! (you probably don't want to answer that).

Scary how easily manipulated so many people are, and I don't think it's just the most obviously vulnerable.

hoodathunkit · 25/07/2019 08:10

Thanks for the appreciative posts and thanks especially to FlapsMagazine for such a long and thoughtful post

Flowers Flowers Flowers

Apologies for not responding sooner I have been experiencing problems with my emails and with mumsnet

This happened last time I posted lots of educational stuff here

It is to be expected sadly

It will take me a while to reply properly to FlapsMagazine's post and I want to do the post justice and reply in a thoughtful and helpful manner

It may be a day or 2 before I have time, just wanted to say hello and to let you know that, for the time being at least, I am still here :)

Needmoresleep · 25/07/2019 08:58

Wow...

Creepy dolls in the window of the Challenor house. (A year ago when it all kicked off, I google earth'd the address on election agent form.)

hoodathunkit · 04/08/2019 11:02

@Needmoresleep

Creepy dolls in the window of the Challenor house. (A year ago when it all kicked off, I google earth'd the address on election agent form.)

Just wanted to say that we need to be extremely careful about dot joining in relation to the very serious subjects I research.

Just because some criminal networks use creepy dolls as part of their MO it does not mean that creepy dolls everywhere are indicative of criminality or anything else.

A deeply unpleasant grifter who uses hoaxes and conspiracy theories about satanic ritual abuse to glorify himself, the notorious Bill Maloney of Pie n Mash Films, made a truly awful film called Sun Sea and Satanism (viewable on youtube if you can bear to watch it) in which he claims that Satanism is rife in Jersey, a significant aspect of the "evidence" being a creepy doll in a window and some obscenely arranged gnomes in a garden.

There are many red flags indicating the involvement of the networks I research. The problem is that some of the symbols and terms that they use are in common usage / parlance.

It is really very important for people to understand that some things, including creepy dolls, can be indicators of criminality but most of the time they are just creepy dolls indicative of nothing at all.

hoodathunkit · 04/08/2019 11:19

@FlapsMagazine

I am very far from any kind of an expert on the OTO but would like to offer my opinion based on my limited contact with people involved with one order, many years ago and another order some time later.

While the orders derive structure from freemasonry they are also influenced by a syncretic mix of spiritual sources including sexualised tantra, ancient Egyptian mythology (they would claim magick) and other traditions.

I do not believe that all of the people involved in various OTO based orders are all sexual predators or dangerous people. There is the usual mix of ordinary, unremarkable people (possibly the majority?) with a tendency towards nonconformism, individualism, and a liking for tattoos, black clothing and being a bit "edgy". Artists are particularly drawn towards these kinds of groups IME.

The people I remember most clearly were the ones whose behaviour was the most remarkable, mostly because they were struggling with drug / alcohol/ mental health problems.

There may have been a significant number of people involved with the orders who I never met who were fine upstanding citizens worthy of praise.

It is also possibly that there were sexual predators and other dangerous people who I either never met or met but did not know well enough to identify.

The initiations in the orders (to my knowledge with the exclusion of neophyte) are linked to sexual rituals. I do not feel it is my place to criticise what consenting adults do in private, however of course any group in which ritualised sexual acts occur is a group that is a) likely to attract vulnerable people with MH problems b) likely to attract sexual predators.

Just as eye gazing, massage, nudity and similar boundary lowering activities can place people at risk of grooming, groups in which ritualised sex acts form part of the routine activity are highly vulnerable to infiltration by sinister forces.

Needmoresleep · 04/08/2019 11:28

Point taken and sorry.

At the time I did not join those dots, indeed I probably don't now, as it is not an area, thank goodness, that I have any experience in. However I did feel for Challenor Senior's victim. She was young and I think it was quite a while before she reported what happened. From what has been said about Mrs Challoner's subsequent reactions, I assume the victim is local.

The poor girl probably had to walk past that house, with those creepy dolls staring out of the window. I think this indicates a level of threat and intimidation. Not unlike AC tweeting herself holding her GG or similar badge whilst standing on the attic stairs. So perhaps not the behaviours you are describing but nasty none the less.

hoodathunkit · 04/08/2019 11:31

@FlapsMagazine

The situation you describe with the American splinter groups hassle similarities with the situation described by one of Colin Batley's victims.

Batley was reported in the press as running a satanic cult. It is difficult for me to determine exactly what happened but I am currently reading a partially ghost written memoir of one of his victims and the mother of his child.

I will report back on the book once I have finished it, however one thing that stands out about the Batley case is that the victims were met with much disbelief because the narrative in the trial mirrored various SRA hoaxes.

This is just one example of how satanic ritual abuse hoaxes harm real victims of sex crimes committed within cults.

Batley used Liber Al (The Book of the Law) as a handy tool with which to make bizarre claims about himself so as to enable appalling abuse of children.

Of course the OTO and other minority religious and spiritual groups will always be a magnet for sexual predators, as are churches and other more mainstream religious organisations.

Any group or situation in which an individual is credited with magical powers and ancient wisdom is going to be a group with a higher risk of abuses than a group without such dynamics.

hoodathunkit · 04/08/2019 11:34

@Needmoresleep

no need to apologise :)

and yes, that is concerning, nasty behaviour

I have to be extremely careful about what I say and how I say it because the very last thing I want is for some innocent person to be persecuted because the have a creepy doll or have used a symbol or term beloved of criminal cults on their website or social media.

hoodathunkit · 04/08/2019 11:38

@FlapsMagazine

There is so much more I want to write in reply to your post but I am extremely pushed for time.

Will post some more later :)

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