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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans woman being threatening at work

100 replies

perpetuallyperplexedbylife · 21/07/2019 11:08

I've name changed for this as it could be very outing, it's such a bizarre situation.
I work in a library. One of our long term customers, who I would class as vulnerable with clear mental health issues has recently declared themselves to be a trans woman. They are well over six feet tall, and now generally wear a frilly tutu over a mankini à la Borat, a corset top, ripped fishnets and New Rocks, along with a terrible wig. (This is the outing bit as anyone from my area might recognise them).
They have changed their name and sex on our database, and have started borrowing books for the first time. I think they are very vulnerable, and once or twice they have come in with obvious bruises, maybe from being beaten up? They also have a little blue haired handmaiden who hangs around with them (I know this all sounds cliched but I swear it's true!)
A few weeks ago they asked me if I would help them with makeup advice. I said that would not be appropriate. They have since got loads of makeup advice books, and now present with a face full of badly applied, smeared makeup. They have also started talking in a high pitched little girl voice. To be frank, I find them very disturbing.
Last week they seem to have a new tactic - going up to female members of staff (never the men - funny that) and asking for books on sex. They have also asked inappropriate questions about whether staff enjoy sex. If told they are being inappropriate they actually have a tantrum.
Our management say we have to treat them as a woman, but I am beginning to feel like I'm being sexually abused as part of this person's fantasies. I'm tempted to report them to the police as I feel violated.
Any advice?

OP posts:
RosesAndRaindrops · 21/07/2019 12:37

My post had nothing to do with "fake naivety" As thatdamnwoman said the complaints should focus on the behaviour

Neither did mine Lass, which is why I agreed with you.
It's the behaviour..

LassOfFyvie · 21/07/2019 12:38

Could you start writing down the inappropriate comments and behaviour and send a report to your union asking what to do, without mentioning this persons identity or sex?
This^

If the customer were not trans would a complaint about a customers behaviour routinely identify the customer's sex or indeed any other characteristic?

LassOfFyvie · 21/07/2019 12:41

Neither did mineLass, which is why I agreed with you
It's the behaviour..

Yes I know. It's the behaviour. Any complaint has to relate to the behaviour. At best the characteristic is irrelevant and at worst leaves it open to be rejected because the OP is only complaining because of the characteristic.

AnyOldPrion · 21/07/2019 12:44

Would it be worth reporting that you are being sexually abused by a woman? I realise it’s a lie, but the investigation might go further if it was entirely behaviour based, especially if you go above your immediate bosses and involve the unions.

SarahTancredi · 21/07/2019 12:46

The fact they are now trans is extremely relevant.

Because what once would have been dealt with now cant be for fear of harassment and accusations of transphobia in which even the police are complicit in.

And they know it. Which is why they are doing it.

Lets not pretend that it's as simple as reporting it. Fgs Hmm

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 21/07/2019 12:53

If the customer were not trans would a complaint about a customers behaviour routinely identify the customer's sex or indeed any other characteristic?

Sex, yes, that's just the way language works. Other characteristics not so much.

I've never seen a complaint from customers or staff that didn't specify sex.

Real complaints we've had over the years from customers include

That man who is always using the computers during Bookbug sessions is a convicted paedophile

That homeless man smells, why is he allowed to hang around all day?

And missives from senior management

We are banning elderly gentleman xxxx xxxx for a year because unfortunately he keeps peeing on the seats and previous measures we have tried have failed to address this issue

It is normal to refer to sex was describing a person.

TeamUnicorn · 21/07/2019 12:54

I know this does not fit with the agenda, but my concern would be that he is having a significant mental health episode, especially if this is seemingly out of the blue and/or totally out of character.

Not sure what you would do next if this was the situation though.

LassOfFyvie · 21/07/2019 12:57

We are banning elderlygentlemanxxxx xxxx for a year because unfortunately he keeps peeing on the seats and previous measures we have tried have failed to address this issue

The sex of that customer is completely irrelevant as to why that customer was banned.

AlessandraAsteriti · 21/07/2019 12:59

@ Lass
my comment was not to you, I think it was clear. In any event, of course the fact that this person is trans is relevant.

Jellybeansincognito · 21/07/2019 13:00

Report to WYP.

You work in a library and for a long time a very vulnerable male used to often go in. Male has become a trans female but has now started to sexually harass female staff and fully refuses to co operate with male staff. You’re worried about the persons mental and physical wellbeing and yourself and other female colleagues are being put in a vulnerable situation and feel threatened by this person. How can you help?

Is the conversation you need to be having with the police.

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 21/07/2019 13:01

It is relevant to staff, Lass, as we need to know who has been banned. The description includes sex even if you don't include 'elderly gentleman', the name and normal pronoun still describe his sex.

And for the record banning is exceptionally rare. In neither of the other two cases I mentioned were the customers banned.

andyoldlabour · 21/07/2019 13:01

From the OP's original post, I think the person in question's behaviour changed dramatically once they had "come out" as a transwoman, and then became more brazen.
I seemed to notice this happen with at least two other people (cyclist and Labour women's officer), where they seemed emboldened by the fact that people didn't to challenge them or maybe seemed intimidated. Their negative behaviour (to put it mildly) seems to always be aimed at women.

Whoopstheregomyinsides · 21/07/2019 13:06

As before, the behaviour is inappropriate- regardless of dress (unless showing bits that could be classed as indecent exposure- which may happen in Borat mankini)
It is not ok to speak like that to any staff - warnings should follow and they should be asked to leave if making staff uncomfortable

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 21/07/2019 13:07

I think Jellybeansincognito's advice is good. I might mention the visible bruising too. Sounds as if there's more going on in terms of this person's mental health and physical safety.

LassOfFyvie · 21/07/2019 13:14

Lass
my comment was not to you, I think it was clear

Your comment about "fake naivety" appeared immediately after Roses quoted my comment. It was not clear to me which of Roses or me was being accused of "fake naivety"

The issue of being trans is irrelevant when compiling a complaint. This customer's behaviour is either acceptable or it isn't.

TeamUnicorn · 21/07/2019 13:14

Yes I agree with jellybean. I think this needs to be raised as an adult safety concern in the first instance.

AlwaysComingHome · 21/07/2019 13:17

You should put a complaint on the record before they accuse you of something.

perpetuallyperplexedbylife · 21/07/2019 13:21

Arnold if we banned all the customers who smell (male and female), especially at this time of year, our computer section would be half empty! We have previously banned customers who were violent, who regularly left turds on seats, for sexual acts in the library and inappropriate computer use. One who has made death threats has inexplicably not been banned, however he will be arrested if he comes onto the premises.

OP posts:
christinarossetti19 · 21/07/2019 13:24

Agree that you and colleagues need to make a record of the encounters and conversations that have made you uncomfortable, and all the person's refusals to speak with male staff.

These need to be presented to your union and management in a 'we are being sexually harassed at work - could you take action please?' way.

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 21/07/2019 13:29

Haha, true about the smelly people. Homeless man isn't even particularly offensive on that front but other customers can be baffled by what is permitted.

The only other time I recall a ban was when one of our staff was robbed, at needlepoint, by a junkie.

AlessandraAsteriti · 21/07/2019 13:37

@LassOfFyvie
of course it is relevant. First of all, because 99.1% of people in prison for sexual offences are males, so the sex of the individual is relevant to the offence. Second because a biological male presents a risk that a woman does not present. A woman cannot rape, literally in English law, because rape requires a penis. So the risk assessment (leaving this person alone in a room with a female or with a male? Mmmmm, what do you think?) has to be different. Also, using a fake identity for the purpose of committing a crime is a separate offence. If a man pretends to be a minor to access children online, or if he dresses as a priest to gain the confidence of little boys, or if he dresses as a policeman to enter your house and rape you, all these add to the offence committed. I do not see why dressing as a woman to commit an offence should be a brave and stunning act. It is identity fraud.

GCAcademic · 21/07/2019 13:38

Because what once would have been dealt with now cant be for fear of harassment and accusations of transphobia in which even the police are complicit in.

And to add to this, I would not be confident that a union would have your back once the trans status of this person is revealed.

perpetuallyperplexedbylife · 21/07/2019 13:41

GCacademic this is my fear too re the union.

OP posts:
perpetuallyperplexedbylife · 21/07/2019 13:44

Andyoldlabour exactly this. We never really had any problems at all with them until they came out as trans, other than that we had noticed they were somewhat vulnerable.

OP posts:
Floisme · 21/07/2019 13:44

I'm afraid my union are the last people I would go to about this. They would throw me under that bus then drive it over me themselves.

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