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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why some young women are so Woke

135 replies

lucasthecat · 21/07/2019 10:51

I am very gender critical - and the bollox of TWAW and the idea of a female penis makes my head spin. My eldest daughter totally disagrees and we have reached a mutual agreement not to discuss the topic. She is a physics graduate quite cool and has a busy social life. She has recently stopped working in a bar in a northern town after 18 months because of the non stop Pervy comments from blokes exacerbated by a leachorous boss. During her degree some of her male classmates constantly dismissed her as thick - but fit - because of how she looks ( she got a 2.1 with some distinctions) in her world the problems are traditional masculinity - the support she gets from LGBT friends and the Woke feel like the solution - I saw the world through her eyes in a way I hadn’t before - I still don’t believe TWAW etc - but it was a different conversation . I don’t think she is stupid or unquestioning - she is judging the world on her experience and at the moment the threat of Trans does not register compared to old school mysoginy

OP posts:
WrathofStrawberryWhittleKlop · 21/07/2019 18:35

It's pretty rare to meet trans people in day to day life

No it's not.

FloralBunting · 21/07/2019 18:46

For younger women and some older women who sit in some western privilege, it is either very easy to believe the fights of feminism have been won, or at least to have found a comfort level within the current system that they can live with. That seems to be the main driver for much wokeness - fish who don't know they're wet, really.

For the woke men of my acquaintance, it really does seem to be a vehicle for the venting of hitherto masked misogyny in an acceptably progressive way. I've known some proper woman haters of the conservative stripe, who have told me to my face that I should not be voting, and belong barefoot and pregnant. These men would be condemned by wokebros in the same breath as telling me that a penis can belong to a lesbian and it's bigoted to suggest otherwise. You even sometimes see that duper's delight half smile as they are calling you names like t**f and revelling in the ability to verbally abuse you to your face.

BandsAndBeer · 21/07/2019 18:56

Have you asked him if men are allowed to wear dresses and make up whilst being men? If not why not?

Oh, believe me, we've had every conversation and variation upon it.

He completely accepts that men should be able to wear dresses and make up etc. He has always been pretty 'gender non conforming' himself - right from wearing his hair in bunches as a pre-schooler and playing with dolls to painting his nails on occasion now. If he were a young child now, he'd be at risk of being 'transed'. He doesn't recognise that though because he's never thought he was a girl - but that's because I've never labelled things as 'boy things' or 'girl things' or made him feel that can't be a boy for liking X or must be a girl for liking Y. He's not a 'masculine man'. But this only reinforces his belief.

He completely accepts that men can do these things which, I think, is why he so readily accepts that those who say they are women must be. Because he does some of those things but still knows that he is a man. So, if some males do it and believe they are women, then they must be.

Lots of people hear science and think that's fact then, they don't go and root out the research to understand it for themselves (and realise there is no science backing T)

The problem is that there is 'science' out there that supports it. Obviously, not 'real' science but it purports to be an advancement of the 'simplistic' (real) science we all know.

Unfortunately, there is as much out there that supports the other perspective as supports the truth.

Does he also believe that anorexics are born into fat bodies?

That's a false equivalence. Apparently... Hmm

Unfortunately, we've also had to agree to disagree because the gulf between our positions is so polarised, there is no middle ground to be found and I'm not prepared to lose my child over it. And I could.

BandsAndBeer · 21/07/2019 19:00

It's pretty rare to meet trans people in day to day life

No it's not.

Again, it depends on your definition of 'trans'. I've known a few old skool transsexuals in my time. I've also met a whole host of young people who 'identify' as trans simply because they don't conform to gender norms.

Boys with long hair/girls with short hair - trans
Girls who wear 'boys' t shirts/jeans/checked shirts - trans
Boys who like pink - trans

Not specified as 'trans' anything in particular - they just identify by the prefix. It really does just mean "doesn't conform to strict gender stereotypes".

So, transsexuals - people with true gender dysphoria who believe that reassignment surgery is necessary to alleviate some of the trauma they feel at their sexed bodies - rare.

Someone who 'identifies as trans' - 10 a penny.

BjornAgain81 · 21/07/2019 19:04

They're definitely rarer than sexist blokes.

stumbledin · 21/07/2019 19:17

I think one of the problems is that what I would call media feminism but is probably Thrid Wave Feminism did a lot to undermine the basic concepts of 2nd Wave ie Women's Liberation. The fact that women as a sex class are oppressed by the male sex class.

So it isn't just that some women growing up dont directly experience discrimination (let alone male violence) but that the equality type agenda has let women believe on one level that they are equal. So when confronted with our right sexism and misogyny at university many young women dont seem to want to believe that men, and the young men they are friends / students with, are actually viewing them as inferior. Or even accept that young men do believe that so it must be easier to be a man, rather than believe that your body, which you may well be happy with, will always mean that some (most?) men will not treat you as equal. ie rather than challenge the male narrative it seems easier to join it (look at the pressure on lesbians to reject their same sex attraction as natural).

And this is why so many MRAs support the trans activists because it legitimises the male agenda and allows them to say we aren't discriminating against women because of sexism, because sex doesn't exist there is only gender identity.

It can be very very hard if in your day to day life and family you have experienced equal treatment and opportunity and then suddenly in the wider world you are constantly being confronted by treatment that says you are a second class citizen.

Wouldn't it be great if universities made sure that was a women's support group to help yong women challenge being disrespected.

Not forgetting that this is being done to them by young men who nearly all studies show are emotionally less mature (by about 5 years) than young women.

Confused
BandsAndBeer · 21/07/2019 19:20

Apparently, TW only adopt typically female mannerisms/clothing/accoutrements (e.g. sexist stereotypes) so that we 'recognise' them as women. But we (T*s) are never satisfied because, when they don't, and these unfortunate women who were born into male bodies choose not to adopt these sexist stereotypes and wear the clothes/maintain the appearance most typically associated with their sex, because that's how they prefer to present, we say they're not women either because they 'look like men'. They can't win. Apparently.

Apparently, we can't have it all ways. Either being a woman is about the clothes you wear/interests you have (the stereotypes) etc or it isn't.

When I point out to him that, actually, it's just about the biology. And that most women don't 'feel like women' - that is just proof that we are c** and that only those whose gender is incongruous with their sex are aware of it.

And when I point out that that doesn't matter and that sex is the only thing that matters because that refers to the needs we, as individuals have, based upon our sexed bodies - for social situations; medical situations etc that's just because we are being overly simplistic. I think these are the times though that he gets close to 'getting it'. But he can't let himself get it because that's Wrongthink.

Rather than see man/woman as biological categories, my son, and others who hold the same views, see them as social categories.

And, if you accept man/woman as social categories rather than biological ones, actually, the argument makes sense. Except that they are not social categories because man = adult human male and woman = adult human female.

But that's reductive and unfair on the women who are born into men's bodies and the women who are born into men's bodies. And who are we to question other people's experiences of reality.

And so we arrive back at square one.

FloralBunting · 21/07/2019 19:52

I think a lot of that is because many parts of our culture have become very suspicious of absolutes. So the pendulum has swung so far towards subjectivity that objectivity is seen as fundamentalism.

If you say there are women and there are men, that's seen as too concrete, and often in the same bracket as 'women must marry men', 'men shouldn't wear dresses', etc.

The ability to hold that material reality exists and is important, while at the same time rejecting strictly controlled traditional roles, seems to be a totally foreign concept for some people.

BandsAndBeer · 21/07/2019 20:04

That's a very good point, FloralBunting and does go some way to explaining it.

lucasthecat · 21/07/2019 20:24

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies - many/most of you have picked up on the fact that whilst I am a total GC - this weekend I saw why my lovely daughter thinks the Trans issue is tiny compared to old school issue of sexist boys at uni and sexist blokes in the pub she works in - and actually the LGBT hive mind is in her corner - I fo think the penny will drop at some point - but at the moment she deals with 50% of the world being blokes and 1% trans - so she picks her issues/fights - I sympathise with her view but disagree -

OP posts:
teflontania · 21/07/2019 20:45

*It's pretty rare to meet trans people in day to day life

No it's not.*

It's probably not rare if you believe all the 'I just happened to run into a clichéd version of a trans woman in the changing room' stories on here but in the real world, yes, it's very rare.

HerFemaleness · 21/07/2019 20:48

When I point out to him that, actually, it's just about the biology. And that most women don't 'feel like women' - that is just proof that we are c** and that only those whose gender is incongruous with their sex are aware of it.

Our non-experience of gender identity is evidence that we have a gender identity. Hmm, i see problems in the logic there.

janeclarejones.com/2019/06/04/a-dialogue-between-a-trans-woman-and-a-feminist-who-isnt-just-a-figment-of-the-trans-womans-mind/

Jane Clare Jones wrote a response to someobody who made similar arguments to your son. I think you'll find the above blog post very useful.

LordRudolphVII · 21/07/2019 20:53

It's probably not rare if you believe all the 'I just happened to run into a clichéd version of a trans woman in the changing room' stories on here but in the real world, yes, it's very rare.

Exactly.

I can only think of having encountered two, one who is my next door neighbour (although he may actually just be a crossdresser, I'm not sure).

LordRudolphVII · 21/07/2019 20:54

Isn't it 0.01% of the population?

Mistigri · 21/07/2019 21:01

My 18 year old student, lesbian daughter described me as a terf when we had an argument on the trans topic earlier this year.

(Actually I'm a bit of a fence-sitter with little patience for anti-science but no time for a community which fawns over Caroline Farrow).

Today she admitted I was right all along Grin. Think peak trans has very much been and gone.

teflontania · 21/07/2019 21:05

*Exactly.

I can only think of having encountered two, one who is my next door neighbour (although he may actually just be a crossdresser, I'm not sure).*

I've lived in London for 20 years and outside of LGBT areas and events have possibly seen one or two out and about. Yet people on here allegedly run into them with a frequency that goes against any statistical likelihood. I wonder why?

Justhadathought · 21/07/2019 21:20

@lucasthecat I’m not going to get into all that, just the language you used makes it sound like you think she’s a fool, just like the classmates you mentioned

No, the majority view is one of naivety and lack of experience.

AnnaMagnani · 21/07/2019 21:22

I think it depends how old you are, what job you do and where you live.

Young person in Brighton - all the time but how trans some of those trans people will be will be debatable. Lots will be a load of young people of either gender dressed alike with quiffs and ear stretchers. Apparently looking individual. It makes me feel old and I mutter something about why can't they just be goths and DH glares at me.

Older person somewhere less trendy - almost never.

I've worked with one transman and one transwoman and both wore lovely, although I would say the transwoman was probably full on AGP.

Via work as a healthcare professional I've met more but still v few and pretty much all of them came across as having issues. And then I work in the male prison system where it is exactly as you expect if you have a passing acquaintance with this forum.

Justhadathought · 21/07/2019 21:23

Why do I not see trans people as a threat to society, you mean? Because every trans person I know is perfectly lovely and not at all what this forum thinks they are

You totally misunderstand........but you know that.

The issue is that the radical trans rights agenda undermines the rights to the privacy & dignity, and the single sex spaces and services for women. And perhaps, even more essentially, claiming that a man can be a woman just because he"feels' like one, is deeply offensive.

Nobody has an issue with civil rights, though.

LordRudolphVII · 21/07/2019 21:29

Yet people on here allegedly run into them with a frequency that goes against any statistical likelihood. I wonder why?

These stories remind me of that one about the pink headband in Walmart. Where some bearded redneck in a camo jacket (of course) allegedly cuffed the blogger's son and called him a 'faggot' for wearing said pink headband.

I remember finding it odd that she complained nobody came to help her, but didn't want to report it to the police herself or have Wal-Mart analyse the footage. It then came out that she'd also claimed to have suffered no less than four kidnapping attempts on her life, narrowly missed being killed in 9/11, and and also avoided a plane crash on a flight she was supposed to be working on as an air hostess (which was later confirmed to be too small to actually require hostesses). 😂

I suspect there are a few similar characters on here....

AE18 · 21/07/2019 21:33

I find it quite alarming to see people genuinely arguing that she's stupid for thinking this way because we put up with worse and she should be grateful the misogynistic behaviour isn't worse. Aren't you happy she wants something better for herself? The point is we shouldn't have had to put up with that crap and young women like your daughter aren't willing to either. The movement may have it's faults but it's a damn sight better than just putting up with it. We were the stupid ones.

HopeClearwater · 21/07/2019 21:42

The T has gotten away with a great deal of immersion by simply attaching itself to the LGB

This^

I cannot see what the Ts actually have in common with the LGBs.

T is about sex (born in the wrong body).
LGB is about sexuality.
Seems to be quite a few parents in the US who would rather change their child’s sex than accept its sexuality.

FloralBunting · 21/07/2019 21:54

I know a couple of trans people to speak to in my town, and I have seen over the past couple of years around five 'feminine presenting' males just going about their business in town. I also know quite a few trans identifying young people, though I wonder if that is because I have had a trans identifying daughter and contact with CAMHS groups etc. I don't live in a big metropolis, nor a hidden backwater. I have wondered if I am in trans central without realizing it...

Hsat, there certainly are a number of threads started on FWR about cliche situations that, shall we say, do not have the ring of truth, and sadly that because the whole internet is a haven for oddballs to gain attention in various ways.

BandsAndBeer · 21/07/2019 22:15

Jane Clare Jones wrote a response to someobody who made similar arguments to your son. I think you'll find the above blog post very useful.

Thanks, I'll read it when I've got a minute!!

bettybeans · 21/07/2019 22:40

I used to think like your daughter and I often now try and figure out why.

  • playing nice, as mentioned above. It felt particularly important to commit to a kinder kind of political and social stance when the world around us seems to be getting less tolerant by the day. Kindness and inclusivity as core principles couldn't be wrong, could they? The problem was that this approach stops your critical thinking in its tracks. And it doesn't just stop it, it makes you feel bad about even privately having thoughts or concerns because that suggests you aren't maybe as kind as you want to be. So you don't think about it and you never admit to having concerns. You just write them off as "one off" "never going to happen" "demonisation" etc.

And because of this they don't ever dig deep enough or think hard enough about it to get to the point where they spot the problems. They don't see the point. They don't think they'll find anything that changes their mind, so they don't look. Plus, for a lot of them, it would be plain old fashioned social suicide and what young person doesn't care about that?*
*

  • this updated type of inclusivity feels like it could be a natural progression of society. If you look back at the last 10/20/30/40 years you see steady change and greater acceptance of differences, in some respects anyway. For me and for many people I know, I think we just put it all down to continued progress and any resistance to this progress was a considered a side effect of increasing support for conservative right wing politics.
  • mental health. There's a much greater understanding and awareness of mental health issues, especially among younger people. They talk about it a lot and in doing so they think they're contributing to reduction of stigma. Normalising it. All good, but what that also does is push the importance of personal subjective experience much higher up the list. It's not such a huge leap to get from mental health and acceptance of individual differences to acceptance of innate gender feels.
  • dismissing older people. It's the same story no matter what generation you look at. Young ones think older ones just don't "get it". That they're stuck in their ways and restricted by limited experience etc.