Why some young women are so Woke

[lucasthecat]

I am very gender critical - and the bollox of TWAW and the idea of a female penis makes my head spin. My eldest daughter totally disagrees and we have reached a mutual agreement not to discuss the topic. She is a physics graduate quite cool and has a busy social life. She has recently stopped working in a bar in a northern town after 18 months because of the non stop Pervy comments from blokes exacerbated by a leachorous boss. During her degree some of her male classmates constantly dismissed her as thick - but fit - because of how she looks ( she got a 2.1 with some distinctions) in her world the problems are traditional masculinity - the support she gets from LGBT friends and the Woke feel like the solution - I saw the world through her eyes in a way I hadn’t before - I still don’t believe TWAW etc - but it was a different conversation . I don’t think she is stupid or unquestioning - she is judging the world on her experience and at the moment the threat of Trans does not register compared to old school mysoginy

they don't see that what is actually happening is that they're being told, by men, what to think and what to do and how to act

Arriving at this thought during a conversation was one of my personal peak trans Closely followed by another one when I realised I couldn’t actually say it out loud due to the situation I was in at the time.

Are the majority of students in universities nowadays "woke"? I get the impression from the media and online that they are, but it did not seem that way when I was a student (2005-2009).

I know one guy who would definitely qualify as woke, both now from what I see on his FB, and back then if it had been a word. We laughed at him behind his back because he was clearly from a rich background but tried to come across as if he wasn't. He would talk about being anti-capitalist while dressed in designer clothes etc. (Me and my friends were from poor backgrounds and did not have it easy financially). But he is the only person I can think of who would be "woke". I don't remember anyone else being that political. Like me and my friends laughed at his hypocrisy with the capitalist stuff but we didn't have strong views on things like that, we just lived, partied, worked, studied etc.

I think that if you are a relatively successful young woman, possibly doing better at work than your male peers because you achieved more at school and university, it's easier to believe that having a female body really doesn't make any difference.

I can remember feeling cross that my parents seemed to think that I was less safe than my brother when out alone, particularly given that he had actually been mugged and I hadn't.

Also, as none of my friends had children until their thirties, the concept of being pregnant or having children seemed like a niche choice that had little to do with my life. It was as relevant as an over 60's bus pass.

The different consequences of being born male or female are more clear when you look back. When you are young it is more pleasant to assume that other women simply did things wrong.

@lucasthecat I’m not going to get into all that, just the language you used makes it sound like you think she’s a fool, just like the classmates you mentioned.

I think it was on mumsnet that I read/understood that the number one thing you can do to prevent motherhood from destroying your earning trajectory is to have a child with a man who will take 50% of the responsibility. I won't even say career because not everybody has a career, but lots of people could benefit from the security of a long term job, steady pay rises, not having to take time off because you don't earn sufficiently more than childcare, being classed as a ''mum returner'', not going part time etc.

Why do I not see trans people as a threat to society, you mean? Because every trans person I know is perfectly lovely and not at all what this forum thinks they are.

@IdaBWells so well put.

I think it was on mumsnet that I read/understood that the number one thing you can do to prevent motherhood from destroying your earning trajectory is to have a child with a man who will take 50% of the responsibility.

I think the difficulty is that many jobs assume that somebody with a child has a partner who will take 100% of the responsibility.

@NeverSayFreelance I suppose Individuals can be lovely but it doesn't mean they're ambassadors for the Trans community. The agendas are real.

Why do I not see trans people as a threat to society, you mean? Because every trans person I know is perfectly lovely and not at all what this forum thinks they are.

Trans people are not a threat to society.

Gender ideology, which is fundamentally sexist and regressive is a threat to society.

And to be clear, all sorts of people believe in all sorts of things without being a threat to society, because their beliefs can be questioned (we no longer have blasphemy laws) and there are no proposals to endorse their beliefs in legislation.

Because despite you raising her to be an intelligent, thoughtful woman - she's been socialised at university that her looks are important, she's "thick" - and then at work that she's meat.

So she's "playing nice" - nobody wants to be insulted or made to feel inferior.

Just the other day in one of these chats it was inferred that anyone with a GC stance was "far right"... and young women are more likely IMO to "play nice".

My middle-aged cloak of invisibility allows me to voice opinions I feel are common-sense... but aren't popular or "nice".

It’s interesting that many of the same arguments being used by the trans community are the same ones used by feminist years age. Those arguments will also be used in the future for any minority looking to become ‘equal’ within society. Which suggests this isn’t a new thing but something that the young have done through the generations. The things we deem not just acceptable but are now lauded were once mocked for being radical and loony lefties.

Take the argument regarding pronouns. There’s was a fight to stop gendered job titles such as postman. Why is it such a leap to get rid of gendered titles full stop?

Personally, I’m GC and think a female penis is an oxymoron but these arguments will always take place and the old will always object.

The trouble there is that unlike much of history, the resistant older brigade were fighting against facts. (Often because facts were not known in earlier time said ) Gay or BAME people are no more likely than anyone else to be evil. Women were no less brainy than men.

Here we have the opposite. We have sex segregation and differentiation only because some things such as probability of experiencing discrimination or violence can be predicted based on peoples sex. We have transwomen claiming to be women, yet they still exhibit on average the behaviours of men. ( based on the data about male and trans sex offenders in UK prisons)

THere can therefore be no reason morally to refuse something to a man that we allow to a transwoman.

I remember watching a young lesbian venting furiously on twitter about how men just wouldnt accept she wasnt into them. It was so powerful with the rage of the young, calling out misogynistic BS right left and centre.

and then someone replied, what about Transwomen?

and without even changing gear she replied "transwomen are women" and my heart really broke for her. She quite clearly didnt want to have sex with men ever but at the same time could not see how she was being gaslit with TWAW

It’s interesting that many of the same arguments being used by the trans community are the same ones used by feminist years age. Those arguments will also be used in the future for any minority looking to become ‘equal’ within society...

Take the argument regarding pronouns. There’s was a fight to stop gendered job titles such as postman. Why is it such a leap to get rid of gendered titles full stop?

But that's not what is being demanded. Not that we get rid of sexed pronouns but that we misapply.

For a while I thought misapplying pronouns to people who identified as a member of the opposite sex was just a kind thing to do. I found myself increasingly uneasy until a few months back I read Pronouns are Rohypnol a very powerful piece that analyses the almost subliminal message the wrong use of pronouns sends.

One example goes like this.

"She's very upset that the women don't want her in the communal showers"

Most people would react very differently to this sentence referring to a man who identifies as a woman compared to the factually accurate:

"He's very upset that the women don't want him in the communal showers".

In the first instance you might wonder why the other women are being so mean, whereas your reaction to the second is "Well, dur!"

Regarding efforts to make job titles more egalitarian if not unisex, feminists wanted a recognition of the fact that women were doing jobs that hadn't previously been open to them. It was a campaign based on the fact of women in the workplace. They demanded terminology that better reflected reality. In contrast, the current campaign for the misuse of pronouns demands that we ignore reality and miscommunicate.

lucasthecat, you’ll never get an answer to your question re, what makes a penis female, because the posters who chant TWAW can’t answer that without having to acknowledge to themselves that it’s a lie. It’s easier for them to say they’re not going to answer because ‘pile on, echo, etc’. The usual cowards answer.

lucasthecat I’m not going to get into all that no, well you wouldn’t, would you, QueenofPain, given that the amount of reasonable arguments you’ve got on your side adds up to precisely zero? 😂

Don’t worry, though. We can all see perfectly well that the Emperor is stark bollock naked.Nice of you to confirm it though!

I think many of us are idealistic when younger we see the world differently and we are not aware of how we can be manipulated as we don’t think nice liberal people would do this

Life experiences teach us something different and sadly it will their experiences not others that will most likely change their minds

I’m not going to get into all that, just the language you used makes it sound like you think she’s a fool, just like the classmates you mentioned.

Based on this comment I read again all the posts by the OP. Please will you, QueenofPain, highlight the language the OP used that indicates she thinks her daughter is a fool?

It’s a genuine request because all I saw was praise for her daughter. I’d like to know if I’m missing something, in order to be more aware of others’ points of view/interpretations.

Thank you.

Could it be because misogyny is something that is experienced far more in the real world (as opposed to online)?

It's pretty rare to meet trans people in day to day life.

It is bonkers.

My son is very much like your daughter, Lucas. He is very much an ally of women - he challenges misogyny where he sees it; is exactly what we want when we talk about young men needing to be the ones who challenge 'rape myths'; most of his friends are female and he was only telling me the other day that he had no idea of certain aspects of menstruation etc that you only gain through lived experiences of it.

He has challenged sexist tropes at university (e.g. challenged a lecturer who apologised to the women on the course for using the word 'toolkit' as it excluded them as women - as 'tools' are a Man Thing) etc.

Except that he completely buys that TWAW. He completely accepts that some women are born into male bodies. He completely believes that female women (he actually uses the C word) have a responsibility to accomodate TW because we have an easier time of it - what with our female bodies being congruous with how we see ourselves and how other perceive us).

He totally understands that it is our biology that makes us vulnerable and is at the root of female oppression; he is angered by male violence against women; and in his first year at university, introduced his small cohort (mostly female) to feminisim. He doesn't understand why any woman wouldn't be a feminist.

And yet...

It's not that he, ultimately, prioritises men over women and that is why he is supportive of TWAW - he genuinely believes that some women are, by a mistake of birth, are born into male bodies.

he genuinely believes that some women are, by a mistake of birth, are born into male bodies

Does he also believe that anorexics are born into fat bodies?

Have you asked him if men are allowed to wear dresses and make up whilst being men? If not why not?

There is a logic fail going on encouraged by the weird mainstream reporting of fiction as fact (in the guise of T as LGB) which is only recently being addressed. I think sexism is at the heart of it as well as a general reluctance to investigate further when someone says TWAW because science. Lots of people hear science and think that's fact then, they don't go and root out the research to understand it for themselves (and realise there is no science backing T).