Toilets

[Newjobnewstart]

I had my first experience of a man in female toilets tonight (was dressed as a female) and im ashamed to say i was terrified. I had my 9 year old dd with me when he walks in. Laughing how he was desperate for loo and its only a bit of brown titty and dicky.
I didnt even let dd wash her hands just grabbed her and ran out. On holiday in florida so dont know if its allowed here but dreading this being norm at home
Sorry if not making sense its 1 am here and im beyond tired. Just had to get it out.

Very good point jacky

And, just perhaps, our opinions are rooted in actual fact; the fact that no man can ever be a woman. There is never any circumstance of any kind in which any man [male] can ever be a woman [female]. To state or suggest otherwise is to suggest a fiction .. even if that fiction is a Legal Fiction.

I think it's legal to carry mace in the US? Assuming so, stock up and spray away.

I would absolutely lose my shit under those circumstances.

Im waiting on my flight home to uk. No mace required (i hope this was my first and last experience)

Blimey the Eyes are on a go slow today! Took the messenger hours to show up after the thread was started!

Or maybe there are fewer eyes now (and correspondingly large piles of scales fallen from them?)

In UK women are not permitted to do this or have any such means of self-defence. Although, an air horn might be a valuable substitute. It won't incapacitate the attacker but it will startle him and alert others, with a bit of luck.

In the UK, women and girls are treated by our authorities as "fair game" for predatory men and boys. We have no legal means of protecting ourselves against them. We have laws that come into play after a sexual crime is committed but nothing to support females to deter any sexual crime.

No matter how much women are screamed at to be tolerant and respectful, so few transwomen pass as female that it’s always going to feel like you’re in the presence of a man. It sounds incredibly harsh but I honestly cannot see any other option than separate spaces for trans people or the end of communal toilets and changing full stop (the latter will probably not work due to issues of space).

No, it’s NOT at all common, yet, in the US for men to use women’s loos, except in the wokest of places, which Florida definitely is not — most especially not a bus station.

In American-speak, what he said to you strikes me as very bizarre and in your shoes, as an American, I would have considered both his presence and his words acts of aggression.

You did the right thing, OP, getting out of there quickly.

Thanks everyone for not making me feel bad for my views. My eyes have certainly been opened.
Im just glad dd was in cubicle and i was there! On occasion i have let her go to loos om own while i waited with ds.

We are not allowed to use made in the UK but there are various deterrents that are legal

Rape alarms that let out horrible high pitch noise

Detterent sprays that include pepper and often either a UV paint or distinct spell that can help identify the attacker - presumably if caught in a timely fashion.

*smell

FormerMediocreMale

Deterrent sprays that include pepper

I am unaware of this. My understanding is that any form of pepper spray is illegal to carry and / or use in UK.

Has the situation changed?

FprmerMediocreMale

"However, pepper spray, when used or owned in the UK is considered an offensive weapon, which makes it illegal to own and carry."

www.bladespro.co.uk/blogs/news/pepper-spray-uk

The only fully legal self defence product at the moment is a rape alarm.

www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q589.htm

Quite frankly l'd feel safer in with the normal men than with these fetish perverts.

THIS is the sad thing and not just the toilet issue. Although I don't believe any man should be in female toilets we had quietly accepted old school transsexuals using womens spaces (though many choose not to) and not see them as perverts/fetishists for living the way they want. The more recent TRA antics have made us look at any such men with more scrutiny and ask ourselves what the difference really is.

we had quietly accepted old school transsexuals using women's spaces (though many choose not to) and not see them as perverts/fetishists for living the way they want.

I think it may be truer to say that we had resigned ourselves to experience some men using women's spaces out of fear of the potential for male aggressive retaliation if we objected.

However, the Equality Act 2010 does give us the legal right to object to any perceived male in any of our communal spaces or services, etc via Schedule 3, section 27 [single sex services] subsection 6:

(6) The condition is that—

(a) the service is provided for, or is likely to be used by, two or more persons at the same time, and

(b) the circumstances are such that a person of one sex might reasonably object to the presence of a person of the opposite sex.

[See also section 26 [separate services for the sexes] and

section 28 [gender reassignment]]

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/schedule/3

From the second link that Sarahjconnor posted - a MtF trans person visiting Disney asks
am I going to be relegated to the family restroom or can I walk into the ladies
This is the problem, they see the ladies toilet as the ultimate goal. Nothing else is good enough & it is odd.

they see the ladies toilet as the ultimate goal. Nothing else is good enough & it is odd.

As far as those men who have the mindset of a rapist it is not odd at all.

The mindset of a rapist is to dismiss the very idea that women have any boundaries or any right to give any consent in any situation.

The mindset of a rapist sees women as an utterly dehumanised something that is there simply to satisfy his needs.

Did anyone spot this in todays Mail

www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-7266937/Mens-bathroom-doors-SIX-times-germs-ladies.html

Our means of defence is practically non existent and extremely limited in the UK. There's a spray called FARB GEL which is non toxic and will stain the person and their clothing. It will not drop an attacker or render him useless, rolling around on the floor in agony. There is nothing we can legally use that will do that. What is does do is give is precious seconds to make an escape while he temporally blinded, disorientated and unable to see you.

Is kicking an attacker in the nadgers acceptable, snd at which point is it acceptable?

I'm in the US at the moment. Used the loo in a very posh shopping centre yesterday. The bottom of the door was ten inches off the ground, the top of the door only about 2 inches above my head, I'm 5'4. Anyone 5'10 and above would be able to see in to any stall with no problem and it wouldn't be too hard for people shorter than that.

I'm used to the gaps at the door edges and the high bottom of the door but yesterday I thought about what the low top of the door meant, and that article about objections to floor to ceiling doors at ucla.

If the same had happened as in the op, I'd have been terrified.

If you have a penis, you should be in the men’s toilets. If you have a vagina, the women’s. End of.

I’m tolerant of cross dressing, broadly on “gender identity” issues but toilets are a matter of basic bodily function, not a social activity, and the bodily parts used for peeing should define which facility is used.

@jay55 I’d agree, PARTICULARLY in the US with the RIDICULOUSLY unprivate “stalls”

we had quietly accepted old school transsexuals using women's spaces (though many choose not to) and not see them as perverts/fetishists for living the way they want.

I know it's meant well but I wish this myth would hurry up and die.

'we' in this context doesn't mean 'we'.

I didn't.
Every little girl who ever encountered an adult man in a toilet or changing room didn't.
No woman or girl ever really thought, yup, I'm totally fine with that big man in here with me.
They would turn tail.
Or hide in a locked cubicle until he left.
Or run home to tell mum.
Or freeze.
Or pretend as best they could.
But silence has never been a good indicator of enthusiastic consent. It's more often and indication of discomfort and fear.

It has NEVER been ok to have men in women's and girls 'spaces.
If some resilient, grown women were ever ok with it, good for them.
But there's not a single man I'm ok with getting undressed in a room with my 11 year old, whether 'oldschool', TrueTrans, GRC certificated, surgically modified, hormonally altered or other.

It's a trope to suggest it was accepted by women and girls once upon a time. I don't think it ever was. I think it's something women repeat because it makes them look more reasonable, as if they aren't rejecting all men, just the new baddies.

The truth is, we've always had boundaries, and it's never been ok for men to cross them.
We've just gradually learned how to say no loud enough for them to hear.