Libfems on twitter blame terfs when butch lesbians get asked to leave female bathrooms

[AnotherAdultHumanFemale]

I've seen a few reports online that butch lesbians are starting to get questioned when they try to use women's facilities. And incredibly, anti-feminist women on twitter are blaming this on...terfs!

Of course they are. Terfs are always to blame for everything apparently.

It's like these people have a complete inability to use critical thinking skills. For example:

1. For years, nobody had a problem with butch lesbians and they happily used female bathrooms with no problem.
2. Transgender ideology starts to get taught in schools, colleges, universities and pushed across certain media outlets and is even found on training and diversity days in workplaces.
3. Transgender ideology takes hold and people start to believe that 'feminine' males are 'really women' and 'masculine females' are 'really men.'
4. Butch lesbians, being gender non conforming, are now assumed to 'really be men' since they don't like pink and having long hair etc.
5. Butch lesbians start getting questioned in female toilets etc and even kicked out (according to anecdotal reports online)
6. TRAs and liberal feminists on twitter blame this on....not transgender ideology, but terfs!

I think it's a really good example of how they do mental gymnastics in order to blame everything on terfs when they are directly responsible. I think it falls under yet another DARVO tactic.

I don't believe this for one second. No GC feminist would ask another woman to leave a female space. They don't give a monkey's about how a woman presents that's the whole point of being GC. It is the TRAs who are obsessed with presentation. Once more misrepresenting the argument. These people are happy to lie to smear their opponents. Let me repeat. It is only men that they don't want in women only spaces.

A bit of anecdata. For years, I have been questioned when entering the ladies, including one amusing event where I was chased across a french airport concourse by someone assuming I could not read french or understand the symbols, hence was just about to make the terrible error of walking into the ladies. My wife gets questioned almost everytime she uses toilets at a motorway service station, although usually by blokes saying 'Oi, mate, wrong loo' as she heads towards the ladies, rather than women inside the ladies. We both sometimes get doubletakes from women inside the loo. This, frankly, is usually nothing more than -- checked shirt (I never said I didn't follow butch stereotypes!), short hair, purposeful walk and not in a dress must be a bloke!.
Since we're both terves, and since this has been going on for years, hence no recent increase in events, I don't think we can blame it on ourselves.

I do think things have becomes harder for butches, but that is because libfems and TRA supporters are more likely to insist we should actually be men. It just used to be straight blokes assuming we wanted to be men that used to be the issue, and now rather than denying this, current trends are reinforcing it! But women in ladies loo are as good at realizing we're not actually male as they always used to be!

I think it's possible that the people querying butch women's presence in bathrooms aren't doing so because they believe they are transmen. Trans ideology is completely incoherent and when people take it on, I think they just stop believing we need single-sex spaces, full stop.

Before self ID became a thing, if I were in a women's bathroom I just wouldn't expect there to be men there. If I saw a woman who looked slightly masculine I'd assume she was just a masculine-looking woman. Someone would really have to be very obviously male before it would occur to me that they might really be male, because it would just be so unlikely that a man would be there.

Now, the chance that there is a male person in women's bathrooms is much higher. So I'd be less likely to think 'Nah, can't be'. I don't think that's a result of gender critical women, it's a result of 'trans visibility', which ironically is something libfems are quite devoted to.

Butch women look like women, though, they don't look like men. I guess it's possible that sometimes a butch woman is mistaken for a man - I think Kathleen Stock said it's happened to her at airports, partly because she's very tall. But how many women really look like men on a second glance?

Yes exactly, it is the reinforcement of gender stereotypes that will be causing an increase in problems with butch women, which libfems and TRAs have somehow decided is the fault of terves when they are the people enforcing the gender stereotypes. Terves have for years said that gender is harmful and all that matters is biological sex. Ie. use the bathroom according to your sex, not your clothes and haircut.

Now which group was it started the whole thing off of men invading women's spaces and behaving inappropriately, forcing women to get much more stringent about their boundaries?

Victim blaming at its nuttiest. And the butch lesbians I know would be fully sympathetic towards anxious and angry women checking who they were in a vulnerable space with, because

a) they get the major, major issues of self ID

b) they like women and care about women's needs and interests and respond supportively to them

c) they're nice people, not self centred megalomaniacs who believe everything is always about them.

Anyway, what's with the support and concern for butch lesbians all of a sudden? If they're calling themselves lesbians then as we all know that's a major political declaration of an unacceptably exclusionary and transphobic position according to the libdems, and I thought all us lesbians who won't call ourselves 'queer women' were under orders to go and die in a grease fire or something equally inclusively loving? Why, when we're all pariahs undeserving of normal human rights is there sudden extreme concern that we may be upset for being questioned by anxious women in bathrooms?

Unless of course it's just a convenient line today to try and throw a bit more mud over the whacking great massive cracks in the whole ideology.

I was posting at the same time as you SomeDyke. Funny that it's airports where this happens :) Terves love travel, obviously.

Yes I've noticed how they blame feminists for masculine women being treated with suspicion in toilets.

The problem is caused by a greater awareness of trans ideology and the likelihood of men being in women's toilets.

If not a single feminist had questioned trans ideology, there would still be a problem.

But women in ladies loo are as good at realizing we're not actually male as they always used to be!

That’s it in a nutshell, SomeDyke! Women may take a second look, and I’ve done it myself, but we can tell almost straight away when someone is an actual woman. I used to be a flat chested, ‘boyish’ looking young woman and often had women do a double take, as I preferred men’s clothing, but they’d soon cotton on that I’m a woman. I was never offended or asked to leave a female space. We instinctively know women, because our very safety and survival has always depended on it.

Years ago I remember reading an article about some extremely masculine looking American lesbians (one of them had extensive natural facial hair). They all said that if a woman did a double take in the loo all they needed to do was to make eye contact or make a remark. It never took more than that.

Women are very good at telling immediately which sex a stranger is. As S1naidSucks says, it's instinctive for our own protection. It matters more for us than for men.

Name-changing for anonymity.

I've got a tale about toilet challenging.

I am an amateur musician and play a large instrument that partly covers the player's face and is traditionally played only by men and still male-dominated, in a type of ensemble that has traditionally been male-only. The uniform both sexes wear is either black tie or a lounge suit and straight tie, depending on the occasion. I was helping another ensemble at a concert last year but forgot to take my instrument's stand with me. When I came to use the loo at the interval, I took my instrument with me and strapped it into the baby changer whilst I went to the cubicle, to keep it safe from falling or being trodden on.

Whilst in the cubicle, I heard a woman calling out "hello, is anyone in there?", so I called back that I was. She asked if anyone else was in there and I replied there was only me. She then explained that she had seen my instrument and was worried that a man had entered the women's loos.

I was not annoyed that she wanted to verify who was in the loos and I'm glad she felt able to check; I worry that in a few years women will no longer feel able to check. I was disappointed that she hadn't realised that some of the musicians on stage were female, although in "masculine" clothing, hair pinned or tied up, and partly-covered faces, I could see how she made that mistake.

Im not particularly masculine looking

But short hair, height and on occasion more androgynous clothing have lead to me receiving a second glance. And on the odd occasion i have given someone else a second glance

But if i cast my mind back to the few times i have been misgendered its by a man

Michelle the butch lesbians I know would be fully sympathetic towards anxious and angry women checking who they were in a vulnerable space with

Me I was not annoyed that she [the audience member] wanted to verify who was in the loos and I'm glad she felt able to check

And I'm not even a lesbian, never mind a butch one.

I think that any reasonable woman would understand that, if her appearance was ambiguous, other women will want to check that she's female, and would be OK with that. We all know the risks that males, with their factory-fitted sperm injectors and sense of entitlement to female bodies, pose to us. I'd rather be challenged in public loos every day for the rest of my life than have one woman or girl raped because a male was not challenged.

^ hear, hear knowthescore

I'd rather be challenged in public loos every day for the rest of my life than have one woman or girl raped because a male was not challenged.

Well said, I absolutely agree. And that demonstrates something repeatedly missing from the whole TWAW narrative - the solidarity that exists between women, the respect between women, and the basic ability to care about other people.

All the transwomen I have seen recently have been dressed as though they’ve just had a 1980-style Colour Me Beautiful makeover and are trying to show that they are Lady Fashion Experts- shoulder pads, helmet hair, lots of gold jewellery and buttons and Queen Mother type sensible heels that match their large square handbags. I have never seen a butch lesbian dressed remotely like this. I do not believe that anyone in real life struggles to tell the difference between transwomen and butch lesbians. It isn’t a thing.

For the love of all that is lovely.

What a load of tosh. Being butch female is a look no man can aspire to.

Also, I think men are also good at distinguishing between male and female (but they really don't like butch females).

I have yet to meet a butch lesbian who I've mistaken for a man.

I do think things have becomes harder for butches, but that is because libfems and TRA supporters are more likely to insist we should actually be men. It just used to be straight blokes assuming we wanted to be men that used to be the issue, and now rather than denying this, current trends are reinforcing it! But women in ladies loo are as good at realizing we're not actually male as they always used to be!

Yup, this is bang on.

Its the gender ideologists that are making things worse, yet still managing to blame it on us nasty terves.

I am both a ‘terf’ and a butch lesbian. Last weekend alone I threw myself out of two womens’ toilets, the second quite aggressively. I was really bursting as well.

I'm quite surprised at all these women asserting themselves.

Back when I used to be casually perceived as an adolescent male I would only ever be challenged on the way in, never inside. Occasionally women would startle on their way in as I was leaving, thinking they were going into the wrong loos.

(I say challenged, it was more like, "wrong lav, love")

Last weekend alone I threw myself out of two womens’ toilets, the second quite aggressively.

Well we all know that women would have absolutely no problem physically throwing actual males, out of toilet as identifying a a women would immediately make them lose all their physical strength and height advantages. That’s why we none conforming females fling ourselves out of toilets all the time.

I hope you had strong words with yourself and explained to yourself why you have a right as a female to be there and that your terf lesbian hating self, shouldn’t be so judgmental and physically violent with your female none conforming self. rereads, then goes for a lie down

I don’t believe those reports at all.

I am GNC and when I wore my hair very short I did get questioned sometimes... so what?

“Um... this is the Ladies?”
“Yeah I know - I’m a lady!”
“Omg sorry, I’m an idiot!”
“No it’s all good!”

Seriously - what is the issue? I would rather be questioned every single time, than women feel they are not allowed to.

More often than these polite exchanges, were rude louts yelling “fucken dyke!” out of car windows.

Where are heart-rending threads about that scenario, and TRAs / libfems admonishing male homophobes to stop it?

NOWHERE.

Because (1) they don’t give a shit about us. They are just trying to guilt women, so AGP males have full access to female space.

(2) they only try to police what women say and do - never men.

Some of these replies have really made me laugh, thanks everyone! I think today's award for Phrase of the Day clearly belongs to Knowthescore who has coined the excellent 'Factory-fitted sperm injectors.'