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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Dr H Again: Prescribing Estradiol Is No Pain (5th thread, it's said)

42 replies

SunsetBeetch · 12/07/2019 17:40

twitter.com/AdrianHarrop/status/1148986526795272192?s=19

I had the pleasure today of prescribing a young trans woman her first batch of Estradiol patches... I’ve hardly ever seen a patient look so happy to be holding a prescription in their hands, after waiting literally years for this day to arrive... an absolute privilege 😀👍🏼🏳️‍🌈

And if anyone is interested:

1️⃣ This is super easy. It’s run-of-the-mill general practice. I prescribe the exact same medication to cis women in the form of HRT on an almost daily basis.

2️⃣ This is super cheap. A month’s worth of Estradiol patches costs a grand total of £18.12.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
SunsetBeetch · 12/07/2019 17:42

Some professionals take him to task:

twitter.com/susan_bewley/status/1149273015156379649?s=19

Dear Adrian, I'm sure you wouldn't wish to encourage reckless prescribing. 1/ As with any drug, the harm:benefit ratio depends on indication, dose, time etc. Insulin is vital in Type 1 diabetes, and can be fatal in the well

2/ There is no comparison with menopause guidance t.co/iUatsbz3iU. The menopause is not a disease of oestrogen deficiency (but a kind of withdrawal from one normal level to another), there is a LOT of research. @NICEComms

3/ General pharmacological principle is to use the smallest dose for the minimum time.

4/ Open ended prescribing of a powerful drug with psychoactive effects requires proper shared decision making - here where there is an absence of good decision aids or evidence, for a much less well understood indication and harms:benefits

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OhHolyJesus · 12/07/2019 17:48

Brilliant twitter!

On that twitter thread there is a link to 'whopaysthisdoctor', Susan Newley was on there but not Harrop.

Anyone know where he practices?

SunsetBeetch · 12/07/2019 17:48

5/ Thus its important for us all to be clear thinking, and to address the evidence and uncertainty gaps - which is the basis of present differences in thinking/approach between 1ry, 2ndry & 3ry care.

6/ Some people might think it mischievious to deliberately muddle the (usually temporary & well researched) prescribing of oestrogens for women with menopausal symptoms with the (planned permanent & less well documented) prescribing of oestogens to natal male/ transwomen.

7/ I want to do right by all patients, with compassion and dignity. But when asking GPs to prescribe drugs for life (& more esp for new group of female-to-male adolescents), I think its OK to ask for & generate evidence. DOI Chair @HealthWatchUK

8/ Also, in interests of transparency, DOI here at t.co/FOZuDV97mK

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JoyceJeffries · 12/07/2019 17:49

How much is he getting paid for all this? And is he still based in the UK?

SunsetBeetch · 12/07/2019 17:49

@susan_bewley thread. indeed, this is not 'super-easy' (and by the way, I would absolutely hate if my doctor tweeted about my consultation (even if disguised))

twitter.com/mgtmccartney/status/1149422410619392002?s=19

Dr H Again: Prescribing Estradiol Is No Pain (5th thread, it's said)
OP posts:
SunsetBeetch · 12/07/2019 18:26

twitter.com/MLaidlawMD/status/1149717586747150338?s=19

This is not actually run-of-the-mill general practice. This could be a blatant form of medical malpractice whereby you overdose someone with a drug. In this case the hormone estradiol in order to put the male level far outside of the normal range for their body. /1 t.co/MiRrBtIq5U

It has been shown more than once that this sort of estrogen overdose leads to an increased risk of deadly blood clots and increased risk of cardiovascular disease (#3 and #4 in list).
t.co/xAz0XFe9vK
/2

Not to mention gynecomastia (abnormal growth of male breast tissue) which many
detransitioners suffer with, in part because the surgery to remove is very expensive and painful. /3

Naturally the risk for male breast cancer increases as well.
t.co/cOdxZSpaQO
/4

The hormone may be "cheap" but the consequences are extraordinarily expensive
in terms of harms to a person's health and welfare, and the financial costs of treating all of the secondary illnesses that develop from the hormone overdose.
/5

Why would anyone encourage General Practitioners to do this?

t.co/qOB9lJGqYk
/6

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Ameanstreakamilewide · 12/07/2019 19:56

I think he's talking out of his arse, personally.

On his first week as a bright and shiny, new GP, he just so happens to have a transgender patient. 🤔

Sure, Jan...

And I thought his golf 'jokes' were clumsy.

I would genuinely like to talk to him face-to-face, one time...I just can't work the man out.

Slightaggrandising · 12/07/2019 20:49

@Ameanstreakamilewide sure Jan Grin

He's such a weasel, glad he's being called out. Dr Bewley is magnificent

RedToothBrush · 12/07/2019 22:19

Is it ethical to tweet about a particular patient?

Only if you've asked for explicit consent otherwise you run the risk of breeching patient confidentiality and GDPR.

I find these tweets particularly interesting in the context of the recent Advertising Standards Authority which ruled:

www.theverge.com/2019/7/4/20682087/INSTAGRAM-TWITTER-CELEBRITY-30000-FOLLOWERS-ADVERTISING-STANDARDS-AUTHORITY-UK
Having 30,000 followers makes you a celebrity, UK advertising watchdog rules

The UK’s Advertising Standards Authority has ruled that 30,000 is the magic number of followers that makes you a celebrity. The decision means that if you have such a following then you have to obey the same advertising rules as traditional celebrities like David Beckham or Stephen Fry, particularly when it comes to product endorsements.

The regulator came to the decision after an Instagram user with 32,000 followers, ThisMamaLife, posted an ad for Phenergan Night Time sleeping tablets. Although they disclosed that the post was an ad at the beginning of its description, the ASA ruled that their follower count made them a celebrity, and thus banned from drug endorsements in the UK.

Now Harrop doesn't have 30,000 followers so this doesn't apply. However his follower base is very specific and of a particular demographic. It make you wonder if this is micro targeting a particular audience.

Harrop of course called the doctor above transphobic for using the term natal-male but as a doctor they should be able to do this in a scientific context - this is more thought policing medicine.

This group, we are of course repeatedly told, are exceptionally vulnerable.

Which might give the ASA or the GMC cause for concern even if Harrop isn't up to 30,000 followers.

I note the following paras from the ASA guidance on vulnerable audiences:
www.asa.org.uk/news/protecting-vulnerable-people.html
Protecting Vulnerable People

^CAP and BCAP maintain self-regulatory rules to protect those who are
vulnerable, including sections in both Codes devoted to the protection of
children. These rules fall into two broad categories: content rules designed to
minimise the potential for ads to cause harm to those with vulnerabilities; and
scheduling (in the case of broadcast)^ and targeting (in the case of non-
broadcast) restrictions which seek to ensure that vulnerable groups are not
disproportionately represented in the likely audience for certain ads.

^Rules in both Codes on harm and offence, children, promotional marketing,
medicines, weight control and slimming, financial products, food, gambling,
alcohol, e-cigarettes and tobacco contain examples of content and targeting
restrictions that are designed to protect those who are vulnerable.^

The ASA, in casework, and CAP and BCAP, in drafting Code rules and guidance, will always take account of the likely audience of ads and the available evidence on potential harm to identifiable groups within that audience.

Also

^The ASA’s Strategy commits the self-regulatory system to being active on issues
that cause social concern, particularly in relation to concerns about public health,
children and those who are financially vulnerable.^

^To help identify the regulatory ‘issues that matter most’, in line with the Strategy,
the ASA and CAP use a priority assessment tool, which assesses regulatory project ideas against three broad categories of questions: impact on people, market impact and institutional impact.^

It goes on to talk about the law on vulnerable people

The law reflected in the Codes provides protections for and duties to protect vulnerable people, and some of the key pieces of legislation can be summarised as follows:

The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (the CPRs)

Regulation 2(5) of the CPRs provides:
^(5) In determining the effect of a commercial practice on the average
consumer—^

^(a) where a clearly identifiable group of consumers is particularly vulnerable to
the practice or the underlying product because of their mental or physical infirmity, age or credulity in a way which the trader could reasonably be expected to foresee, and^

(b) where the practice is likely to materially distort the economic behaviour only of that group, a reference to the average consumer shall be read as referring to the average member of that group.

^The European Commission’s guidance on the Unfair Commercial Practices
Directive (which the CPRs implement in the UK) also refers to other potential
vulnerabilities, such as health problems, membership of a minority group, poor
credit history and gender.^

If I am reading this correctly this means the 30,000 for a 'celebrity might not actually be necessary, if you have a person in a position of trust such as a doctor, who had a smaller audience which was disproportionately vulnerable and had certain characteristics if it might cause them to change behaviour and purchase a product (I believe asking for a drug is in affect a commercial purchase just done through the NHS so it's relevant - I find it interesting that Harrop indeed mentions price so it really does feel like a sales pitch)

The ASA might well look at this as a case because it also features drugs AND a vulnerable group as part of it with some interest.

Especially if there were doctors who were pointing out the ethically dubious other stuff going on in those tweets.

And certainly making the point to the GMC about how there's lots going on here that is really ethically not cool, would be relevant.

I'd also be curious as to whether Harrop has links to any pharmaceutical company. He may well not do.

And I'd be raising questions if he is in private practice doing this too. Which I don't know.

All in all, this is very dodgy ground ethically speaking for a whole host of reasons.

OneEndedStick · 12/07/2019 22:21

Haddock's tweet has a wafer-thin veneer of transactivist ideology but tbh, it reads to me like a straight-up ad. "Hey trans women, (oh yeah ok, transguys too) check ME out! I'm like totes super down with the TWAW!1! So you'll 100% definitely get a scrip from me if you want it, and look how cheap!1!!".

That media career is looking further out of reach than ever but having registered himself as a business, he's most certainly getting all his ducks [including, obviously, any drakes identifying as ducks] in a row with regard to establishing a loyal following, a percentage of which will be his word-of-mouth, and another who'll transition into patients as soon as he can open his own clinic (or is he looking to partner up with the likes of the Webberleys....maybe?)

RedToothBrush · 12/07/2019 22:24

but having registered himself as a business

Oh that's interesting.

It also means that he is subject to the ASA regardless of how many followers he has as his twitter account CAN be regarded as advertising.

Interesting.

Ali1cedowntherabbithole · 12/07/2019 22:28

Because the number of male patients on a typical GP’s list who are considering transition is tiny, there is a risk of patient identification when discussing in the public domain.

Therefore there should be no public discussion.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 12/07/2019 22:47

He has a job? As a doctor?

But... but... but... what does it take?

RedToothBrush · 12/07/2019 23:14

Shall we have a look at the BMA's social media guidance?

Yes. Yes we shall.

www.gmc-uk.org/ethical-guidance/ethical-guidance-for-doctors/doctors-use-of-social-media/doctors-use-of-social-media

Here is the very first paragraph

1 In Good medical practice we say:

36. You must treat colleagues fairly and with respect.

65. You must make sure that your conduct justifies your patients’ trust in you and the public’s trust in the profession.

69. When communicating publicly, including speaking to or writing in the media, you must maintain patient confidentiality. You should remember when using social media that communications intended for friends or family may become more widely available.

70. When advertising your services, you must make sure the information you publish is factual and can be checked, and does not exploit patients’ vulnerability or lack of medical knowledge

Do we need to go any further?

Lets look at this one:

Respect for colleagues
15 Good medical practice says that doctors must treat colleagues fairly and with respect. This covers all situations and all forms of interaction and communication. You must not bully, harass or make gratuitous, unsubstantiated or unsustainable comments about individuals online

So saying this alone is grounds for Susan Bewley to make a complaint:

Adrian Harrop @AdrianHarrop
Refresh re: rules of engagement: folks who casually use phrases like “natal males”, & words such as “transwomen”, as well as gleefully retweeting all of the usual transphobic heavy-hitters, are most likely not engaging in a discussion / exchange in good faith. So, no thanks!

Shall we have a look at the Royal College Of General Practioners have to say about social media usage?

Yes Lets.

www.rcgp.org.uk/social-media
Here it is.

How about we start with this from under the heading
Respect the Privacy of All Patients, Especially the Vulnerable

Advice that users of social media shared with us:
• Do not discuss real patients, their illnesses, conditions or any of their personal information in public, except with explicit and informed consent of those concerned – otherwise you are at risk of breaching their privacy
• Be aware that even if you change one or two details in a case, such as the age or sex of the patient, the patient or their family may still be identifiable from other details – this is particularly likely for cases involving rarer conditions or unusual presentations
• Remember that even though revealing an isolated piece of information may not in itself breach confidentiality, when put together with other items of information it might do so – just as the individual pieces of a jigsaw form a recognisable picture when put together
• Rarely, you might encounter information in social media sites that places you under a professional obligation to break confidentiality. Examples include information relating to child safeguarding concerns or criminal acts. In these situations, you should follow the appropriate professional guidance and seek expert advice

I like how under the heading
6. Contribute Your Expertise, Insights and Experience

We have a quote from a certain Dr McCartney:

‘There are hazards in doctors being too afraid to have an online presence. Having doctors online is a good antidote to nonsense science, erroneous media health scares... . Social media enable doctors to stand up for good medicine, democratically and instantly.’ Margaret McCartney, GP, Glasgow

And the guidance underneath states:

Social media sites provide a powerful tool for raising public awareness of topical health issues, enabling doctors to counter information that is inaccurate, lacking in evidence or potentially harmful. It also enables doctors and the public to participate in a broad range of conversations about healthcare needs and priorities.

Followed by the key points:
Advice that users of social media shared with us:
• The views of doctors carry a lot of weight with the public. Use this power responsibly, to challenge and inform as appropriate, justifying your views with evidence
• Social media should be regarded as a two-way conversation, not a one-way transmission of information; interaction is the aim; differing and strongly held views should be expected

So the guidance literally tells doctors to challenge fuckwits and that there shouldn't be a shutting down of comments and interaction is the aim they should be going for - not telling people not to engage cos another doctor doesn't agree with you.

Under respect for others we have:
• Check that anything you post about other people or organisations is factually accurate, just as you would in any other setting; there have been cases of professionals being sanctioned or subjected to legal proceedings for passing on erroneous or defamatory information
• When part of an online group, don’t be tempted into joining others in making derogatory comments or ‘ganging up’ on another individual – this behaviour could be regarded as ‘cyber-bullying’. Be wary of the power of the mob
HEALTH WARNING: making derogatory, threatening or defamatory comments about others could have a harmful effect on your career. ‘I was just blowing off steam’ may be an honest explanation, but is not likely to be accepted as a valid justification by professional bodies or employers.

I'm guessing that the above includes leading a twitter mob and accusing someone of being transphobic.

Anyway, it looks like Mr Harrop could do with training in social media usage and ethical guidelines that he is subject to, together with an awareness of how advertising applies to him with particular reference to targeting vulnerable people especially if he is personally registered as a business.

How he still is practising is somewhat beyond me. The trans stuff is completely irrelevant - this is his general conduct.

NotBadConsidering · 12/07/2019 23:18

I read that tweet the other day and all it had was some congratulatory replies. So glad someone has taken him to task for it medically (I’m not on Twitter).

Anyway, it looks like Mr Harrop could do with training in social media usage and ethical guidelines that he is subject to, together with an awareness of how advertising applies to him with particular reference to targeting vulnerable people especially if he is personally registered as a business.

I think that given what’s happened with him in the past in relation to this and the GMC, it’s clear that Harrow just doesn’t learn.

BickerinBrattle · 12/07/2019 23:26

With a drug pusher, the first taste is always cheap, or even free.

Estradiol may be cheap NOW, but will it be so in 15 years? Twenty? Thirty? How much will Amazon Pharmaceuticals be charging by then?

I think that’s a question to strongly consider before electively entering a drug regime for life when only in one’s teens or twenties.

I remember when, in the US, the epipen used to be inexpensive. Now, not so much. Ditto for Narcan.

OldCrone · 12/07/2019 23:27

but having registered himself as a business

He's had a limited company in his name since 2015.

beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/09574557

NotBadConsidering · 12/07/2019 23:34

I remember when, in the US, the epipen used to be inexpensive

Yes, and there’s a shortage of Epipens currently. If there’s a price hike or shortage of oestrogens for transwomen in the future guaranteed there’ll be people yelling about it.

“This lack of oestrogens for transwomen is literally killing us!”

“This lack of Epipens for people with anaphylaxis is literally killing us!”

Only one of those statements is actually true. The oestrogens are actually causing harm, raising the risk of breast cancer and a number of other complications. So what Harrop has done is committed someone to a lifetime of medicalisation and risk of harm, then proudly boasted about it on Twitter.

Just when I think the level of contempt for this man couldn’t get any higher...

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving · 12/07/2019 23:47

Someone on Kiwifarms said they thought his business was connected to the Wibberly Wobberlies somehow. They didn't back it up, so just speculation, but if anyone has the time to pull the thread...

RedToothBrush · 12/07/2019 23:53

If he has a commercial interest and conflict of interest its relevant. This includes his own personal image and profile if he is planning a media career.

I suspect no one has looked into the advertising angle at all, but if he's advertising drugs /ideology to an audience that is unrepresentative of the general public and is one that has a disproportionally large number with a characteristic which marks them as vulnerable, its relevant.

SunsetBeetch · 13/07/2019 01:13

"I can't really argue against her, so I won't."

Dr H Again: Prescribing Estradiol Is No Pain (5th thread, it's said)
Dr H Again: Prescribing Estradiol Is No Pain (5th thread, it's said)
OP posts:
MagneticSingularity · 13/07/2019 03:22

Ah the new chestnut “not arguing good faith” aka “I have no valid or answer for your arguments so I’m resorting to accusing you of being a bigot.”

Needmoresleep · 13/07/2019 07:13

One example in the media of the potential problems Dr H needs to be aware of:

www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-48102578

BessyK · 13/07/2019 08:51
The Hormone Health Crisis - Benjamin A Boyce and Endocrinologist William Malone MD
Needmoresleep · 13/07/2019 09:28

A testimony from Rene Jax who discovered the downside of a lifetime on hormones

The problem is that since Adrian is so keen to shut down debate he failed to hear legitimate arguments against the long term use of powerful (albeit cheap!) medications.