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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sexual harassment on train, had enough of this

29 replies

derailtrainpervs · 10/07/2019 23:50

Namechanging because my Mum is involved in this.

Mum and I are on a train sitting opposite each other in window seats, having taken two aisle seats earlier and then moved over to the window when the people in the window seats left. There is no table in the seat bay. The train gets busier and an older couple sit next to us in the aisle seats. Mum and I both noticed that the woman was carrying all the shopping, and they don't talk to each other beyond "here's some seats". We come to leave the train, the man suddenly grins widely. He raises his hand as Mum is standing up and hovers it near her bottom but doesn't touch (because I am watching perhaps?). I stand up, and as I leave the seat bay, I feel his hand rest on my backside behind my hip for a few seconds.

No physical harm done but I feel violated, about half-an-hour later I started feeling sick and I'm going to have to shower before I can sleep tonight. This has brought back memories of prior, much more serious sexual assaults and reminded me that, despite 100 years of suffrage and civil rights gains, there are still men out there who think that women exist for men's gratification and convenience and that a woman without a man at her side is abandoned property for any man to claim.

Let's analyse this event.

  1. He knew what he was going to do, he planned it as soon as he realised we were leaving the train, that's why he grinned like he'd been given a present. People don't grin like that normally when someone they've never even spoken to leaves a train.
  2. I was helpless to stop him and he knew it: a) When I stand up, I can't ask him to lower his hand that is poised to touch me, it's his hand so I have no right to tell him to lower it and he hasn't touched me YET. b) I can't tell him not to touch me before I pass him, because that's accusing him of something he has not YET done, and we know how that will end. c) I can't refuse to pass him, there's no other way out of my seat and I'll miss my stop.
  3. I cannot confront him at the time or do the "grab his hand, shout 'who's hand is this that I found on my arse?'" thing, and he knows it: a) If I confront him, I'll miss my station, my Mum is already on her way through the train to the doors and I'll have to call her back, she might not hear me and then she will leave the train without me and we will be separated. b) He touched me for a short enough time that i) I cannot react fast enough to grab his hand/stomp hard on his foot/etc and ii) he could claim it was accidental. c) If I confront him in front of his wife, it will humiliate her in public and I am unwilling to do that out of consideration for her and her feelings. d) If he is abusing/controlling his wife, she will take the brunt of his anger at home if I confront him (remember, he's not talked to her, she told him where seats are and they have been silent since, this is not normal for a couple, and she is carrying all the (food, probably for both of them) shopping when he has enough use of his hands to touch women's arses, this is not the action of a decent man, this is the action of a man who considers his wife to be his servant).
  4. I cannot make a formal complaint to the train operator or police and he knows it: a) His wife didn't see it because I am not see-through, my body was between her and his hand, and she would probably would not support me even if she had, either through "not my Nigel" or through being under coercive control (remember she is carrying all the shopping). b) My Mum didn't see it because she is heading towards the train door with her back to me. c) He would probably claim that he was "being helpful" and "guiding me out" (In which case, why not do the same for my Mum? And do adult women actually need a stranger's hand on the arse to guide them out of a seat bay?).

Mum and I talked this incident over and basically the only thing we can think of that might have prevented it was if we had sat side-by-side so that the couple would have been opposite, and even then he would have still been able to reach one or both of us, especially if he had taken the aisle seat. And frankly, we shouldn't have to change where we sit on a train to stop skeevy men from touching our backsides.

Woman don't react in the moment because we frequently cannot. This is why I'm posting this: people need to understand that women can't always react to or avert sexual harassment.

OP posts:
42isthemeaning · 10/07/2019 23:55

I'm sorry this happened to you. A man put his hand on my backside up my dress and with his other hand was masturbating. It was a sardine packed commuter train and I didn't realise initially. It was 25 years ago and I've never forgotten the feeling of violation and disgust. I pulled his hand off and shouted at him. He just grinned. Sad

GodDammitAmy · 11/07/2019 00:04

I'm sorry too Derail. Not the same as not on a train but an old man was walking towards me with a real steely expression on his face in a shopping mall once. I was right near the shops and had no where to go when he staggered and "fell" into me, conveniently breaking his fall as his hands grabbed my breasts. He knew what he was going to do, I felt so uneasy at the way he was staring at me and knew something was going to happen. What could I have done? Shouted at an old man? He'd have got everyone's sympathy and I would have been the one everyone turned on. It still makes me feel sick to think about years later.

TalkingAboutPride · 11/07/2019 00:04

I'm sorry this happened to you. You were (obviously) in no way at fault.

I want to gently challenge you in a couple of points though. You are not powerless.

You can (and should) report it to the transport police. I hear they take it very seriously. No they might not catch him but even just reporting it for the statistics can help.

You absolutely can react in the moment. You are not responsible for his wife's embarrassment - and what if your reaction helped to empower her to see what an arse he is and get herself some help to get out?

Imagine if you got your mum to pull the emergency lever and you shouted loudly letting everybody nearby know that he's just sexually assaulted you. Imagine the ticket conductor coming to find out what's going on, and the police potentially too. It would sure as hell make him think twice about doing it again.

I had similar happen to me in a nightclub - my instinctive reaction was to grab the fingers, turn around and twist. He was lucky he didn't get them dislocated. Imagine if you did that.

You are most definitely not blame for not doing any of these things. But I want you to know that you're not powerless. For too long men have fed women that lie.
Xxx

Chocmallows · 11/07/2019 00:09

I think you should report and see if he's on any recordings in the area. He may be repeatedly doing this (and more) and more sightings may help identify him.

Reporting may help you get the feeling of empowerment back.

TheInebriati · 11/07/2019 00:16

c) If I confront him in front of his wife, it will humiliate her in public and I am unwilling to do that out of consideration for her and her feelings.

There is also the risk that if he feels humiliated by you, he will take it out on her later.

derailtrainpervs · 11/07/2019 00:17

TalkingAboutPride I should have mentioned that this is a guardless train using driver self-despatch. There are not routinely platform staff.

OP posts:
derailtrainpervs · 11/07/2019 00:25

TheInebriati That was my point 3d Smile

This is a regional light rail service with trains every 6 minutes on the section of the line I was travelling on. I could not, even later on the day of travel, tell the transport police which train I was on for the footage to checked, nor which carriage.

I'm now annoyed at myself for not capturing the carriage identifier nor noting the time, as I have done in the past when reporting doors that won't open and other train faults. I'm mentally prepared for fault reporting thanks to my job, but not skeevy men.

OP posts:
Chickenish · 11/07/2019 05:52

I think behaviour like this automatically changes the way we react. Afterwards, you can think it through rationally, but in the moment, you only have how you react naturally, and this isn’t something you should feel bad about.

I had a job where a manager touched me once. My natural reaction was to slap him and leave the job there and then. I don’t as a rule go around slapping men, but it was what I reactively did.

Sarahjconnor · 11/07/2019 06:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Erythronium · 11/07/2019 06:49

4) I cannot make a formal complaint to the train operator or police and he knows it:

You can. You don't need other witnesses to report an assault. I haven't reported assaults in the past but in this case it might help you feel a little better or at least more in control. It would be a formal, legal record that you'd been harmed and you would be reporting that this man is a sexual criminal to the police. Sorry he did this to you.

Itwouldtakemuchmorethanthis · 11/07/2019 06:55

I’ve been assaulted several times in my life, in all but one my silence was caused by a need to protect someone else’s feelings. I’m older now and have obviously had to think about it more than I’d like. It’s the silencing and pressure to protect others from repercussions that causes me the most confusion/rage/pain. You met an arsehole who assaulted you. I’m so sorry that happened to you and I hope one day we find a way to make it stop.

MeltedEggMum2 · 11/07/2019 06:57

It's a violation, and your reaction is just as valid as any other woman's.

When my stbxh attacked me a couple of months ago, my reaction was to immediately call the police and kick the fucker out. It was the first time he physically assaulted me, but he had two decades of coercive control to keep me docile and compliant. (Didn't work, in the end)

During the assault, I froze. Completely. I was in utter shock as he wrapped his hands around my throat and thumped me across the face (hard enough to leave a bruise, hard enough for me to continue to have jaw discomfort to this day).

I thought I was the sort of woman to fight back, but I kept still instead. At first I was ashamed of this, but now I realise my instincts served me well. If I had fought him in the moment, he may well have squeezed my throat rather than 'just' held it. He may well have killed me.

How we react in the moment isn't what really matters. I think what matters is what we do after, how we process the violation and how we move forward from that moment. Everyone will choose a different way of handling it, and I think every reaction is equally valid.

I imagine you could still report, op, even if you don't have all the details. What happened to you was wrong, and you deserve redress if you can get it.

rabbitwoman · 11/07/2019 06:57

I can remember walking through covent garden once with a shopping bag, one in each hand. A young boy, maybe 11 or 12 with his mum, just casually reached up and grabbed my breast as he walked past.

And I did nothing. By the time it even registered he was long gone. It took a second. I remember it twenty years later and still replay it in my head differently, but there really was nothing I could have done.

These days I would like to think I would react differently. Last time I was groped, though, was in a classroom by another young boy and I had the opposite reaction - I had to really bite my tongue and fight my natural instinct to react, and calmly send him out and hand it over to someone else to deal with.

Fucking shocking we have to deal with this shit so much I actually use a sentence like "last time I was groped" ......

AnyOldPrion · 11/07/2019 07:57

I thought no, had I remained calm (not guaranteed), I might have simply asked in a loudish voice, “can you put your hand down please?” So a polite request, not an accusation before the event.

But I definitely wouldn’t consider his wife’s feelings. If he does it in front of her regularly and she does nothing, then she’s an enabler. I know it can be hard to leave abusive men, but her presence shouldn’t affect the way you deal.

Anyway, what happened is truly shit. Please don’t beat yourself up about what happened. I have frozen and not reacted any time something like this has happened to me. I hope, by thinking through (and sometimes re-enacting so far as possible) that if it happens again, next time I will be able to respond the way I wish I’d done.

BogglesGoggles · 11/07/2019 08:00

If you had very loudly told him off and reported him to the police you would have likely stopped this from happening to someone else. Unfortunately life isn’t always what it should be and you have to put up a fight.

MeltedEggMum2 · 11/07/2019 08:19

Boggles, not necessarily, and that sort of comment is victim blaming 101. Kindly reconsider making comments like that to women in future. Women are not responsible for the actions of perpetrators. Ever.

ChattyLion · 11/07/2019 08:21

So sorry this happened to you OP. It’s very hard in these situations and there are fucking loads of them if you use public transport a lot. I tend to freeze and beat myself up afterwards for not being able to react quicker but that isn’t helping anyone least of all me. Main thing to bear in mind- you don’t need to protect anyone else’s feelings whoever they are and all the public shaming is on the sexual predator and not on you. I do wonder though if we need a national awareness campaign about supporting women on public transport and better system support for women travellers like bringing back train guards-

Especially if you consider that a massive increase in public transport use is needed if we are going to save the planet.. burden of that will fall on women so we need to shout about it now. (Sorry to derail at the end OP)

ChattyLion · 11/07/2019 08:27

Btw OP if there is transport police in your area might be good to let them know

Cecilandsnail · 11/07/2019 09:45

I did a bit of waitressing when my eldest DC was a baby for some extra cash. Some dickhead patted me the bum. He was there with his wife and teenage daughter too. I was fairly timid in my early 20s, and just moved away and didn't say anything. I still go over and over it. I should have stuck the fork I was carrying in his hand. I think we SHOULD respond to sexual harassment LOUDLY. Although of course it's not always easy to do when you're in the situation yourself. Anyone touches me without permission these days is getting an elbow to the face and their balls squeezed in my vice grip . I'm not timid any more! Sorry this happened to you op. I want to unleash my rage on the world when I hear of things like this.

BlooperReel · 11/07/2019 09:49

I am sorry this happened OP. I have to tell myself 'not all men' to stop myself hating them all, it's so damn prevalent.

I was walking up the stairs in a nightclub many years ago, the guy behind me shoved his hand up the back of my skirt, between my legs, honestly it was so violent and forceful, I was so shocked.
I spun round and belted him across the face and was so enraged I kicked out at him too (lucky I didn't fall and break my neck!). Guess who was asked to leave the club by the bouncers? Angry

SirVixofVixHall · 11/07/2019 10:07

Some of these posts (sarahjconnor, op) made me cry with empathy and fury. I have a friend who has held a man’s groping hand aloft and shouted “Whose hand is this ? Because it was on my bum” very loudly.
I find that the shock of something slows my reactions. I once had a man sit next to me on the tube, and open his legs wider, and wider, looking at me, and pressing me against the window. The train was quite quiet, I could see a couple close to me looking worried. The crushing man was young, and radiating anger , I had a strong feeling he was dangerous, so I just sat there, in a panic. Eventually he got off and The couple came to see if I was ok. They had been frightened by him too.
I have had the “accidental” bottom touch so many times on tubes. My eldest dd is fourteen and I am absolutely dreading this happening to her.
What the fuck is wrong with men ?

SirVixofVixHall · 11/07/2019 10:11

Oh and waitressing ! One Summer, “naice” Highgate restaurant.. man actually held my skirt tight from the back, to check that I was wearing suspenders ! I had on an ankle length slimish skirt, hot day so I had stockings rather than tights, he had noticed the little bump from the tab of the suspenders I suppose.
I dropped his food and refused to serve him. Men were just horrible to me daily, I lasted about a month.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 11/07/2019 10:36

I've had my share of assaults where I froze, but one triumph cheers me even many years later.

I was in the ticket hall of Piccadilly tube station at rush hour. It's a large space and it was rammed. In the middle of the crowd I feel a man's hand on my arse.

I twisted round, stared at him, pointed, and said loudly "This man's groping me."

Of course he couldn't get away. Everyone around was staring at him in disgust and he was trapped. It felt brilliant.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 11/07/2019 10:40

But you weren't in a position to do anything like that, OP. If you'd been alone you might have reacted differently. I can see the presence of your mum was inhibiting. I'd have felt the same (though I'm not sure I'd have been fussed about his DW).

TheInebriati · 11/07/2019 10:45

derailtrainpervs Sorry yes I missed that. I'm fighting a heavy cold and probably shouldn't be posting Blush

I see men police women who use defensive techniques while they are in public, saying we have no right to treat every man as if he is a threat. But the reality of assault is that the men who are doing it hide it. They don't walk around announcing they are looking for a victim. they present in the same way as all the other men.
So when it happens you have the shock of an unexpected and unwanted physical to get over, then you just want to get away as fast as you can.

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