ok I'm a man and I would appreciate some advice

[DanganropaFlys]

I'm prepared to take what you say no matter how hard it difficult to hear.

I don't want to be considered a "feminist" man. The few I've met, tend to use it to be overly creepy dudes and hut in you g women in what I consider an inappropriate way - my sample population is 2.

Also I don't want to be a woke joke.

My dd's are gearing up for Pride. I'm proud of them for doing it, I try to explain things that are red flag behaviours in men. I'll be honest, I've done some of them in the past, when I was younger. I've also haven't been that good in relationships in the past and I haven't been the best, needy, entitled, demanding. I hope I've learnt my lessons. There have been s couple if threads here in feminist chat and on AIBU that have been eye openers, well not really eye openers but have convinced me that I need to seek advice on how to be not a "feminist" bloke but try to use behaviour and language in such a way that, that I don't come across as weird, creepy, it have just plain old got it wrong.. I'd like to lead by example to other men too.

So my question, how could I go about achieving this aim, what advice would you give to a old man trying to figure this out?

Hi thanks for posting
I think the general consensus in feminism is that men can't be feminists because they're not female, but the can and are welcome to be feminist allies. Men calling themselves feminists do tend to have that creepy, overstepping the mark thing going on.

The few I've met, tend to use it to be overly creepy dudes and hut in you g women in what I consider an inappropriate way

Ok lol but pardon?

I try to explain things that are red flag behaviours in men. I'll be honest, I've done some of them in the past, when I was younger. I've also haven't been that good in relationships in the past and I haven't been the best, needy, entitled, demanding. I hope I've learnt my lessons

OMG don't worry I've been dreadful in the past too. I've cheated, been a nightmare, all you can do is learn and most importantly not blame the world around you. Own your behaviour. So long as you've learned from it, it's an opportunity to understand more deeply the intricacies of life and relationships, we all make mistakes.

As a dad to DDs it's brilliant you're trying to understand the world from a woman's perspective, that's all any feminist looks for in an ally.

IF you would not say it to a man you just met, then don’t say it to a woman.
If you would not expect a man to behave in a certain way, don’t expect it from a woman
If you wouldn’t treat your son like that, don’t treat a daughter that’s way

I would not give you any advice as I dont think treating females well and with respect should need to be spelled out to anyone.

You clearly see after years of experience the struggle women face and how men are the catalyst so why not lead by example. Point out your previous wrong doings. Tell them they need not accept misogyny just because men are the default.

Fuck my life I just gave you advice...I am a shit feminist 🙄

Start by setting your daughter's a positive example by doing your fair share of housework and shitwork (life admin that too frequently gets pushed on to women). Let them see you treating women in your life in a positive, respectful and equal way, so that when they start relationships they set the bar high, and get treated the way they deserve and don't settle for anything less.

I dont think treating females well and with respect should need to be spelled out to anyone
The OP isn't asking how do I treat women with respect.
Feminism is political. It's about how do I (men) get on board without being told to gtf by feminists.

If you’d be uncomfortable with a gay guy doing it to you then don’t do it to a woman is a pretty good rule to go by.

I don't think I know any adult men that need to ask women to tell them how to "use behaviour and language in such a way that, that I don't come across as weird, creep"

I for one am not going say how brilliant you are for saying you've been a dick in the past but now would like women to tell you how not to be a dick. Oh and women need to help you to "lead by example" to other men.

Are you saying you need to learn how not to be weird or a creep? Do you usually need to seek behavioural advice from women in this fashion?

I'm sick of men expecting women to tell them how to behave - oh, whilst graciously advising us they are prepared to listen to what we have to say

Very good advice from MIdgebabe. Also, forget about "not all men are like that". They aren't, of course they aren't, but a lot are and it doesn't help young women to be constantly second guessing their gut instincts. Women are raised to be "nice" and "kind" and that often manifests in trying to excuse or ignore huge red flags by "giving people the benefit of the doubt". NAMALT feeds into this, so do some thinking about how to recognise behaviour patterns at a population level as well as an individual level. Class analysis is your friend.

For yourself, I guess just listen to women. Don't try and read between the lines, or guess what you think they're really trying to say, just listen to their actual words. There are loads of really good feminist books and essays out there. 'We Should All Be Feminists' by Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie is a pretty accessible place to start.

DpWm

hut in you g women in what I consider an inappropriate way

Illiterate fingers and no proofreading.

It was supposed to read

hit on young women in what I consider an inappropriate way

Feminism is political. It's about how do I (men) get on board without being told to gtf by feminists.

He could start by not having to ask the question in the first place!!

If he came on here asking "how do i teach my children not to be racists even though I was in my youth" would you go oh bless him at least hes trying

No you would expect any person to treat humans as humans without thinking the colour of their skin would make a difference.

Change the word black to the word women and people suddenly need a step by step guide!

As a man IMO you can be an ally not a feminist.

You should behave towards other women how you want other men to behave towards your daughters.

Don't limit your expectations of your dds because they are female.

Read some feminist books and encourage your daughters to do so. Personally as a GC feminist id avoid 3rd wave and recommend 2nd wave instead.

I know a couple of feminist guys and both are great. They treat women with respect, the one with DD goes out of his way to actively parent 50% of the time and expose the girls to more than pink unicorns. He talked about being asked if mum was out for the day when taking his DDs out, so obviously men are still seen as babysitters a lot of the time.

I think the main thing is just don't be creepy, talk to women with respect and listen to what we have to say.

I know a counsellor who describes himself as working from a feminist perspective which I find interesting and not 100% sure how I feel about that one.

I think as far as campaigning then you also need to respect women's space and ask any individuals or group what they want your role to be.

Well done on challenging your perspective on the world and changing your behaviour.

I think in a political sense, reading and thinking about some of the issues that are going to affect your daughters... are they going to get paid significantly less than men, why is that? What are the subtle ways in which women are penalised?

Things like it taking longer to get work done because some men respond more slowly to women instructing them than they do to men:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/gender-inequality-man-woman-switch-names-week-martin-schneider-nicky-knacks-pay-gap-a7622201.html%3famp

The pervasive teaching of girls to be ‘nice’ is addressed in this Atlantic piece on the values inculcated by girls’ activities of ballet, chess or football:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/278386/

It’s a fascinating read.

The toll of the mental load etc:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/26/gender-wars-household-chores-comic

My advice would be: don't ask for women's labour on a feminist forum. It's open. You can read it for yourself. You don't need Extra Special Replies For The Visiting Man.

Not getting into a row but it's a parenting forum and I welcome the question OP.

Do some reading in the FWR (for women's rights) boards though and specifically Pride stuff. You don't say how old you're daughters are but Pride looks a bit different these days it appears. I have never been but I'm now very aware of the fetish on display even when they are billed as family friendly events.

As for language, I'm keen not to police language, as are many of us on here, so not sure exactly how to help but the fact you are asking is good - keep reading you'll learn from that alone I'm sure.

Indeed Lang - while I do not doubt the OP’s intentions, this is the first time I have sat down all day... my time is too precious.

That said, there are some good male allies on Twitter - for example Luke and Ryan Hart @CoCoAwareness and Man at work @MichaelConroy68 who give what seems to me excellent advice targeted at men. Start there.

Call other men out for their shit behaviour. Every time. Help make it not ok to be like that.

I don't understand the bit about Pride. Are they lesbians? In which case what's the issue? Why would creepy hetero men be at Pride? I am missing something, clearly...

I didn't see one please from the op. lots of 'I' though...

There are a plethora of feminist books/articles. They are not hard to find. Here's one, and that's my free labour for random males used up for the day. www.feministcurrent.com/2017/09/26/justin-trudeau-accidentally-demonstrates-men-shouldnt-call-feminist/

Why would creepy hetero men be at Pride?

Erm, I guess you have missed a lot of recent changes with pride. Its basically geared towards creepy hetero men these days

There are zillions of things. But one of the things you can do is notice what films you watch and what media does.

Rape scenes, gratuitous sexual violence towards women, it's all served up for your entertainment. And it's telling your daughters exactly what society thinks of them.

Next time you watch a movie and a woman is raped, ask yourself why the producers, actors, directors and financiers think you would like to see that.

Oh, and the other thing. For one week only, whenever you open your newspaper, write down how many articles are about male violence. Just as an exercise. A series of ticks. For one week.

And then look and see whether or not the words male violence are ever used.

The bit I said about language, it's not so much my written or spoken language to other, it's more my internal language, through upbringing and environment and circumstance I find that, even though I can police easily what I say, I still have to police it.

Pride, they are still early teens and preteens. I don't know how they view their secuality, I've not asked and when they are ready to tell me, they will tell me. What I don't know is how I could help them to seek out the equivalent for feminist issues and become involved. My DW steers more towards Katie Hopkins and isn't interested.

I now realise I was asking the wrong things in the wrong place, for a question I really hadn't thought through.

Advice for free: don’t put down your wife on a feminist forum...

As I now understand your question, you are asking if there is a feminist/woman version of Pride? And how to help your DD’s find this and become more involved? Sometimes it is only when young women come up against discrimination that they see the need for feminism. Other young women are interested because for various reasons, while some are never interested at all - which is fine, they do not have to be.

I think my honest advice here is to let your DDs find their own direction. That said, I am not sure I would be comfortable with my preteen and younger teen attending Pride, given some of the things I have read on here - but my older teen I would let make up her own mind.

Random ‘because’ in that post - apologies