YouGov poll finds 56% agree with the right to self identify - poll commissioned by Pink News

[stumbledin]

From a newspaper article:

The research, conducted by LGBT+ publication Pink News, found that out of 1,720 adults, 56 per cent of them support self-identification, fuelling hopes among campaigners that legislation allowing this will be included in the Gender Recognition Act, which the Government has vowed to reform.

Commenting on the findings, PinkNews CEO Benjamin Cohen said: “More than two years since the prime minister made a groundbreaking pledge in favour of trans equality, it is clear that the public backs reforming the law to allow trans people to self-identify in order to receive a Gender Recognition Certificate.”

(and)

In May, transgender women’s rights to use the pond were formalised following a consultation conducted by the City of London Corporation, which canvassed pond users’ attitudes to gender identity and trans women's access to the space.

Similar to PinkNews' findings, the consultation had a similarly positive outcome, finding that 65 per cent of people felt that trans people should not suffer discrimination.

(Clearly the Indie didn't register the number of comments they got at that time about how the London Corporation survey was invalid - or have chosen to ignore them)

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/transgender-people-lgbt-self-identifying-protest-pink-news-schools-children-a8986506.html

These seem to be the survey results and it shows they have avoided any real questions about would you still support self id in prisons, womens refuges etc..

d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/2luhpftm91/PinkNews_Results_190613_w2.pdf

Pink News have taken that down from their side (surprise) but you can still find reference to it fairplayforwomen.com/you-gov/

No my mistake, only 18% said yes, 23% said they didn't know, 58% said no.

So 82% weren't prepared to answer yes.

“Do you think a person should or should not have to obtain a DOCTOR’S APPROVAL to change their legal gender on official documentation (e.g. birth certificate or passport).”

The question, which actually asks if people agree with something trans people can already do without a GRA, ie get their passport changed. Turned out they did not.

I have agreed that people have the right to self-identify as foxes before.

I’d maybe add a caveat to that though - and that’s be careful around Jolyon Maugham QC... 🤷‍♀️

So an extremely bias site could still only muster 56% and they think this is a win.

56% in 2019, 50% in 2020

I think any poll should have to define the terms used. Many people still believe you can only get a GRC if you have full sex reassignment surgery, so its clear they dont understand what they are supporting.

twitter.com/izziefruity/status/1280777274992754688

I think most people think a 'transwoman' is someone who's had full sex reassignment surgery.

What's the lead time on polls?

Did this drop from 56% to 50% occur before or after JK Rowling spoke up?

Good news, either way.

So let me get this straight, two years ago a survey which worded the question as ' Do you think you should have to have a doctor approve their legal gender' ended up with 58% of people saying YES and only 18% saying NO with the rest saying don't know and only 2 years later we have shifted opinion that much? And now we are in a situation where 56% of people say YES and 23% say NO to self identification?

I read a LOT of these polls on political ideas and trends. What is striking about the last 4 years is how little people have shifted their overall political opinions and beliefs.

Whats also striking is how little people understand politics as a rule.

The question of 'self identification' and what this means versus 'legal status' and what this means is important, and I think from the way the two questions, two years apart are phrased really emphasises this. Whilst in principle people want others to live freely without prejudice, I think its different to when the legal and practical implications are considered and how that impacts on the freedoms and rights of others. And thats where it gets messy and complicated.

I simply do not believe that in two years there has been this enormous change in public opinion in this way. I think people want to be seen as open, accepting and without prejudice and value this, but I don't think this fundamentally changes how they see legal status and protections. They still expect that to be maintained. This is why you get the simulataneous talk of stopping 'fake trans people and abuse of the system by man' without any thought given to how you do this in practice. People just expect it to magically happen because they haven't thought about the safeguards.

As soon as you examine that - by talking about approval of legal status by doctors for example - or what self ID actually means in practice, people start to think a bit harder.

Answering my own question: it was after - seems like JKR first talked about it early in June and this poll was conducted 26-28 June.

Still though, I have an impression of more and more people waking up even in the couple of weeks since that (presumably just as biased and leading as last year) poll was conducted.

Forgive me if I’m wrong but my understanding is JK believes people should be able to identify in any gender they want; however this does not mean we don’t need single sex spaces.

That's s crap questionnaire. Should people be able to identify as a different gender. Well yes, of course they should. Should they then, after identifying as a different gender, be able to have the same legal rights / protections of the sex/ gender they have identified as? No they bloody shouldn't.

As soon as you examine that - by talking about approval of legal status by doctors for example - or what self ID actually means in practice, people start to think a bit harder.

Yes. The first question in 2018 was explicit. Do you think people should be able to change official ID without a medical diagnosis.

The recent question (and the one they ran in 2019) was not. Do you think people should be able to self ID (what does that mean?) to a gender (what does that mean?) different to the one they were born in (what does that mean?)

But still only 50% in favour even of this woolly concept. I think this shows awareness of the political and social agenda is growing.

That's s crap questionnaire. Should people be able to identify as a different gender. Well yes, of course they should. Should they then, after identifying as a different gender, be able to have the same legal rights / protections of the sex/ gender they have identified as? No they bloody shouldn't.

YY, exactly. And the 2018 poll (at the time of the GRA consultation which TRAs are trying to claim was rigged as they sent in more responses) firmly rejected any change of official gender/sex status without a medical diagnosis.

Screenshot (posted upthread in the original discussion) of the first 2018 Pink News polling result

Forgive me if I’m wrong but my understanding is JK believes people should be able to identify in any gender they want; however this does not mean we don’t need single sex spaces.

Depends what you mean by "identify as." Anyone can "identify as" anything they want and most people are fine with that. Changing your legal documents to match your fictional identity , thereby making it impossible for the group who actually ARE what you "identify as" to exist as a coherent legal category - that is what creates the problems.

This poll is asking people about the former and misrepresenting their answers as support for the latter.

This poll is asking people about the former and misrepresenting their answers as support for the latter.

Yes, and they have consistently done this.

As always, Yes Minister got there first.

It all depends on the warm-up question.

"Do you think people should be able to dress/present as they wish in a free society?" versus "Do you want someone with a beard and penis in your open-plan gym changing room with you?"

"Do you think sport-for-all and increasing inclusion is good for public health?" versus "Do you want your daughter's 10 years of intensive training in swimming/running/etc to go down the drain when she has to compete against a transgirl with typical male musculature?"

Yes exactly.