Genuine question to any lesbian woman who feels like answering

[ahumanfemale]

I honestly do not understand how any single lesbian can think that someone with a penis is a potential sexual partner for them and it makes no difference. Unless trans lesbians are only potential partners for other lesbians and not them personally? Or do they not believe that trans women also identify as lesbians? Or is there a lesbian culture that actually wants to have sex with a real penis as long as it's a lady dick?? What is going on in the lesbian community where there is so much more support for women with cocks than women who refuse to have sex with women with cocks?

This isn't goady. I'm genuinely confused because as a relatively straight woman I'm aghast at self-ID and how that would impact my safety and sense of safety in a single sex environment, never mind the idea of that changing who I was "allowed" to be sexually attracted to without being a bigot. I'm also shocked at the language and threats of violence I see online from the trans activists and their admirers and it is a massive red flag..but somehow do they not see this?

I don't know anybody well enough in RL to ask this to, which is why I'm posting here. I've also not really found much about it online. If there's a good article, please just link it rather than waste your time explaining it to me - I'm aware this is "education" but I'm not sure where else to ask!

Thanks in advance to anybody who replies!

That is alot of questions....
Personally I don't know any lesbian who would have sex with anyone with a penis. Any lesbian who says they will is not a lesbian and they should stop appropriating our word.
Asking lesbians to "reflect on our preferences" is deeply hurtful as we have mostly already spent lifetimes doing just that.
There is a nasty bullying attitude from within the LGBT which is leading to lesbians being excluded (self excluded).

My experience is summed up by a "lesbian" individual who came up as a match on my online dating the other day. They explicitly state that "they are not interested in males"
The hypocrisy is overwhelming, an actual lesbian (homosexual female type) would not get away with that. But this AGP male is entitled to state they do not want the ladydick and that is ok. If only actual lesbians could be left alone for saying the same.

Not a lesbian but my sister is, and neither she or any lesbian in her friendship group would do dick.

Aspley Thanks for taking the time. Can't believe that profile!! Well, I can't, but you know what I mean!

I'm wondering if the women, like Mhairi Black and the three on Women's Hour this week, plus all the ones who say Get the L Out doesn't represent them because trans women are women, are just trying to be PC but don't really believe it.

It makes absolutely no sense to me.

2BthatUnnoticed Do any of them go along the "trans women are women" line of thinking though and believe - or say - that they should be able to enter women's spaces?

I'm now just thinking aloud on Mumsnet! Is it that as women belonging to a historically (and I'd argue, currently) oppressed group, that there's a projection of their own experience and a resulting misguided kindness offered to other people who are claiming to be suffering?

Is there a collective pain that is "triggered" with the idea that some women are not being treated as women, allowed to express themselves as they want etc, that eclipses the fact that these people are trans women and what that definition actually means?

I've been thinking about this lately. Cynthia Nixon had some interesting comments on this, basically that being gay was a choice for her and she doesn't like being shouted down by others in the community that she had no choice in it. I have heard other women who came to lesbianism later in life say this too, that their sexuality was more fluid than they realized but that they choose to be with women now. Does that mean that all of them would never consider men again? Are they actually bisexual? I don't know, I'd have to ask them. I do think society and history show us that women's sexuality can be quite fluid and that, alongside an unfortunate dose of wokeness, may leave lesbianism more susceptible to the idea of men/anyone as sexual partners, than the gay male community.

I don't however personally know a single lesbian in a relationship with a trans woman. I know a couple in relationships with trans men, and in those cases both members of the couple seem rooted in reality and are well aware of the fact that they are in a same sex relationship.

Most of it is Cognitive Capture, and Regulatory Capture.

Do not anger the Gods Of Tran.

Or, breastbind, take testosterone, try to identify out if the whole cluster fuck.

I get emotional vertigo when I think of my path if I was a 19 year old lesbian today, instead of in the 80's.

@PhoenixBuchanan
I think that is a good point, there is a persuasive attitude about lesbians (that does not exist around gay men) that we are all just choosing to exclude males rather than it being an unchangeable aspect of our sexuality.

I didn't choose to reject men I have always had uncontrollable attraction to other females.
This idea that female sexuality is fluid is so damaging (maybe it is fluid for some but I wish they wouldn't then pretend to lesbians. They are surely bi?).

No one does this shit to gay men.
No one tries to say their sexuality is fluid and it is very rare to see anyone tell gay men to get down on a trqnsman. The double standard just shows how little respect people in LGBT have for lesbians.
Doesn't matter how many fishnets/heels and poorly fitting dresses someone wears - I am not going to have sex with a male person ever again in my life even if they put a pink bow on their girldick.
Been there, done that, hated it. If male people want sex, surely they would have more chance with straight women? I not here to validate anyone's delusions.

It is upsetting. I had to come off Twitter a while ago as there are so many males on there pretending to be lesbians, and trying to shame us for our sexuality.
There is only so much LGBT backed homophobia anyone can deal with.

I just don't understand this desire to be so unthunkingly PC as someone else mentioned. It has led to a situation where a genuine oppressed minority (homosexual females) have become further marginalised by people falling overthemselves to validate the fetishes of straight white males.

When I was involved in what was called the LGB society at university 20+ years ago, the prevailing view even then was that you could define your own sexuality regardless of your actual behaviour. The sexual health information circulating at the time all acknowledged that some lesbians may sleep with men, some gay men may sleep with women. I never really got my head around it but I accept that people’s sex lives are complicated. It’s a bigger issue now that certain people feel entitled to sex with anyone of their choosing...

Why do you need to understand who is sleeping with who and why?

I'm not a lesbian, but there does seem to be a perception at the moment that "all women are a little bit bi" that I find extremely irritating. And I think this fuels the trans "lesbian" agenda by making it seem that women can be easily swayed in their sexual preference.

No, no we're not any more than men are. Some people are bi. But women usually do have a distinct sexual preference. I am straight. I do find some butch lesbians attractive to the eye, but when it comes down to the bedroom I want dick. If my partner took their clothes off and there was a vulva instead I would be instantly turned off. Plus, a woman doesn't smell sexy to me. When I kiss a man I get turned on by the smell of his skin and a woman wouldn't do it for me, no matter how male she presented.

I am sure most lesbians feel this way also. They want a woman who smells like a woman and has a vulva. And they are perfectly entitled to want that in a sexual partner and to refuse those who do not have features that they find attractive.

Any "lesbian" who is attracted to a male is not a lesbian, just a straight or bi woman who has appropriated the term. I think there are some older lesbians who are supporting the agenda for their own reasons but would never actually entertain sexual relations with a transwoman (Much like LOJ is so passionately pro the belief that TWAW and shouts down all the lesbians and other women who dare speak up but was disgusted at the suggestion that he might consider going down on a transman).

There are some younger (actual) lesbians though who are being persuaded that they should overcome their genital preferences and have sex with transwomen. I've seen online young women really beating themselves up about how they are struggling to cope with sex with someone with a penis and all the messages that this is a prejudice, that they are a bad person for feeling this way and that they need to persevere.

In previous generations, many lesbians tried to force themselves to be straight and got married and had sexual relationships with men before eventually accepting their sexuality and coming out. This is the current day equivalent, except it's the LGBTQ community rather than wider society which is pressuring them to do it.

ahumanfemale they all think TWATW. I think people who believe “TWAW” are a very tiny, but very powerful segment of the population. I suspect around 6 billion people would find it exceedingly odd to define “woman” without references to female bodies.

This thread explains a bit about what's going on:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3146166-Transactivism-and-the-lesbian-community

I am a 60 year old lesbian, who grew up in a time where lesbians were out and proud, we created our own spaces frm the ground up. The problem I see is identity politics. If a misogynist male can "identify" as a lesbian he can speak about what lesbians are, and in typical male form, threatens anyone who disagrees with the slur "terf".
These "lesbian-males" are the same as any straight dude who tells women to suck his dick. It is rape culture, it is wrong, but NO males are speaking out against it so it is acceptable.
Think about this: the most dangerous place to a lesbian to be is at a Dyke March.
It's a goddamn nightmare for lesbians, the call is coming from within the house!

I was called 'homophobic' (a homophobic lesbian, who knew) on MN a couple of weeks ago for saying a lesbian was a biological woman who was sexually oriented to other biological women.

Apparently 'lesbian' is a term anyone should be able to choose for themselves, regardless of their biological sex or sexual orientation and it's 'homophobic' to assign specific meaning to it.

I gave up on the conversation at that point, as the homophobia of the person calling me homophobic (without the faintest clue of what it meant or the irony of it) was too tedious to be buggered with. You can't argue with stupid.

(To the creepy blokes who stalk MN to tut about uppity women, please note here the lack of throwing myself about at HQ sobbing about being unsafe and hate crime and ringing up PC Gull to report everyone..... and I was born at a time where if you held hands with your girlfriend in public you were in danger of violence. And not the 'literal violence' kind, the kind actually involving blood, hospitals and threats to life.)

Redefining "lesbian" to include literally anyone is dangerous to actual lesbians.
What has gone on at recen Pride events is a black mark on LGBT.
Even if some (hypothetical) lesbians claim to be ok with male people, that is still no reason for the current abuse of those of us who say no.
But there is no one to speak up for us. Even Stonewall have got rid of homosexuality as a thing to be protected. Such a shame gay men are not under the same homophobic pressure to accept female people or this mess would never have got off the ground. Women are always told to "be nice" now extending to what it little more than conversion therapy.

Magdalene Berns has a good video on Youtube where she comments on a video two young alleged "lesbians" have put on Youtube. One of the "lesbians" has a girlfriend with a ladydick and she just seems so brainwashed. It is so obvious to me, that they made that video to appease the "girlfriend" with the ladydick.

I think it’s actually more likely to be a ‘woke’ heterosexual woman who would date a transwoman and claim that it is a lesbian relationship.

I am a lesbian. I don’t do dick, of any arrangement, natural state or surgically redesigned. Any woman who does is not a lesbian.

Quite apart from the utter devastation the T have raught on the lesbian community, I can’t see what good it does the bepenised and erstwhile bepenised lesbian identifiers either. I do know a few lesbians, actual lesbians, who think twaw, but who freely admit that they’d never go out with a male. Personally I don’t think it’s the kind and compassionate thing to do to tell a group of people that they’re perfectly welcome in your group, despite having no intention of includeing them, and not expecting anyone else to include them either. What even is the point of that? You wouldn’t invite someone to a party knowing full well that all the other guests will ignore them and resent their presence. That would be out right cruel, to everyone. I get really angry with lesbians who go along with the twaw pretence. It’s not being kind, and if they think that then they’re either stupid, selfish, or completely deaf and blind to the way they’re being coerced and manipulated.

What I remember an article years ago by a self identified lesbian voicing the frustration that lesbian women made them welcome socially, were keen to include them, were very nice to them in all ways, but then refused when the writer tried to take a friendly relationship into a sexual one.

What I heard was the mismatch of realities: women are usually careful not to be too nice to men because they know how often this can be misinterpreted as 'you're on for sex' and it can end in a tricky, or even violent situation. Women in this case were keen to be kind to someone they saw as in need, so treated them socially as they would treat another woman, and were bitten as this person viewed this as the same 'we're on for sex' signals as generally others born with penises would when communicating with people born with vaginas. The writer then felt 'led on' and unfairly rejected at the last hurdle to sex.

This one Michelle?
This was one of the first I came across. The entitlement is off the scale:
"the cotton ceiling must be broken".
No one is entitled to sex, particularly not from a group that specifically excludes you.
I wouldn't badger a straight women for sex as it would be unpleasant for them and totally disrespectful. What gives (some) transwomen the right to harass lesbians??
If no is the answer then think about it and leave us alone.
tgforum.com/the-cotton-ceiling/

I don't think it was that one - I seem to remember it was something about dancing on a bar? - but that is a very insightful article for all the wrong reasons.

The writer notes that 'the look and the feel of [biological women's] bodies are just plain magical' and prefers them to all others. But is unable to accept that women might have the same feeling and want to make the same choice. The plain feeling of superiority over women and the seeing of women as props not people is writ large. Not attractive.

From that article: All we ask for is a chance to love who we want to love and be who we want to be…

Yes, so do lesbians.

and for many transwomen — that is a woman. We are women. Love us like one.

Yeah, we're back to 'do what I want and not what you want'. Why? Because the writer feels more important, more necessary, that women don't need to have their feelings or choices respected. So they don't truly see themselves as women, they see actual women as a separate group lower in status than them.

Who's up for a giant game of masochistic co-dependency, mindless self sacrifice and accepting less in life because it's so jolly nice to give your all to make someone with a penis happy? Not me. We have entire boards at MN trying to help women escape situations like this.