No self ID in Scotland!

[Bowlofbabelfish]

Or ‘nice one Joan McAlpine’

www.scottishlegal.com/article/scottish-government-abandons-plans-over-gender-self-identification-following-backlash

Apologies if this has already been posted, I haven’t seen it.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine
Until I see it confirmed elsewhere this is not correct. AFAIK the government still plans to go ahead, but it's going out to consultation again and a proper EqIA done
^^
This.
.

Bold fail. But yes its still good news. Women have worked very hard.

This not no, this is the long grass the can's been kicked in to, and the SNP are very likely happy to make this look like 'no to self ID' in the press until the election is safely over as they've realised they may lose the election on it. The consultations and reviews all good steps, we've already proved that the consultation that was kept so quiet and supposed to confirm policy pulled up problems they couldn't ignore, and more whistleblowing is going to inevitably happen before they get this out again. But they will be put under huge pressure from the lobby groups they're spending so much money on.

But they will be put under huge pressure from the lobby groups they're spending so much money on.

And this needs to be looked into. Why so much funding on these groups? Who makes these decisions and are they reviewed? Does the Scottish Government think they have been getting value for money, from, for example, Engender?

❤️❤️❤️ Joan and all the marvellous women of Scotland who have stood up and fought for the rights of women and girls. Brava

And this needs to be looked into. Why so much funding on these groups? Who makes these decisions and are they reviewed?

Absolutely. Why do these groups have so much influence? Who is doing due diligence to ensure that people with nefarious motives (like Gordon pike for example) are not involved in setting policy? Why are safeguarding and child safety frameworks being flouted and why are people pushing to dismantle them? What are their motives? What influence do groups like TELI have? Why have the ECHR been looking for a test case against a school (as per leaked mermaids emails?)

There are a lot of very hard questions that need to be asked.

And Joan McAlpine you are a bloody legend. A heartfelt thank you. If Scotland can do this from being so far down the path already, then so can anywhere else. Even if this is just kicking the can down the road, we need to remember that Scotland was supposed to be a done deal, the deal done behind the scenes by pressure groups, and done on the quiet before anyone noticed.

This is a great achievement but other posters on here are correct - it’s being put out for further consultation and for equality impact assessments to be carried out - which is excellent but there’s a task ahead to ensure that proper consultation goes ahead, that the right voices are heard and that no one gets to hijack proceedings or just play lip service. It’s already being painted as a gross ‘betrayal’ of the transgender community by the likes of Mahiri Black (SNP) and Patrick Harvie (Greens) who seem to object to the equality impact assessments (outrageous?!) and just want to press ahead regardless. Of course the SNP might be trying to stall any reform till after the next election so that women are on side and don’t ditch them in protest. This would cause uproar among the transgender lobbyists of course but then what’s stopping the SNP reneging on this once they’re voted in again?

But there’s no getting around the fact that a hard-fought, grassroots campaign by women has caused this suspension of reforms and has, to my huge relief, meant that the LGBT Youth Scotland advice to schools pack is being removed from schools to be replaced by future guidance from the Scottish Government.

I’ve got 2 kids in secondary in Scotland and am deeply concerned at the over-emphasis on transgender rights and some of the ‘advice’ for schools that’s been filtering through. If my kids are gay, I want them to feel proud and supported, not funnelled down a path of doubt about their sex and ‘straightened’ out via an overbearing trans narrative. And if my kids develop dysmorphia/dysphoria I want good mental health support and advice not trans flag-waving, cheerleading and instant ‘validation’. Big thanks to Joan McAlpine and Joanna Cherry too. Such a sanity saver to hear some politicians speaking up

Joan you are amazing!

I understand it to be that the SNP are now concerned about losing votes so are pushing it back till after next election. Surely all parties will have to confirm their policy in their manifesto so we will all be able to vote accordingly?

Yes, I don't think this is 'new' news - it's to do with the announcement on June 20. It seems to have taken a while to filter through the press. There was an article in the Times at the weekend:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/feminists-celebrate-u-turn-on-self-identification-in-scotland-as-women-s-prisons-review-trans-policy-gr3vtzwj9?shareToken=09d0e056f08a97e3fd25e46a6c41b7b3

My understanding is:

• they've kicked GRA reform into the long grass by announcing a second consultation on a draft bill which will include a comprehensive updated equality impact assessment. They're proposing dropping medical evidence and cutting the time 'living as' the target gender from 2 years to 3 months, with a further 3 months cooling off after the application is approved. From the howls of outrage from some quarters I gather this means it might not get through before the next Scottish election. Oh dear, how sad, never mind.

• they're going to withdraw the LGBT Youth Scotland guidance for schools because it excludes some girls from female only spaces. They're going to publish new guidance by the Scottish Government

• they're going to set up a working group on sex and gender in data (for the census bill).

The Times also says they're reviewing the prison rules (currently self-ID in Scotland).

Here is the announcement and subsequent Q&As, including an excellent contribution from Joan McAlpine:

www.scottishparliament.tv/meeting/ministerial-statement-update-on-scottish-government-review-of-the-2004-gender-recognition-act-june-20-2019

The tide is turning.

Joan McAlpine and allies, we salute you from Wales and hope that we can insist on something similar here. Thank you for showing the way and showing other legislatures that they don't have to go along with disastrous and anti-women decisions in order to look trendy and woke.

This is fantastic. We need more politicians like Jo.

*I will outline some key provisions that will be in the draft bill for consultation. Existing requirements in the 2004 act to provide medical evidence will be removed, but it is important to stress that the current requirements will be replaced by an alternative statutory process. The term “self-identification” is routinely used, but in my view it does not adequately reflect either the seriousness or the permanency of the process that is envisaged. Applicants will, as they are now, be required to make a solemn statutory declaration that they intend to live permanently in their acquired gender.

In addition, applicants will be required to state in that statutory declaration that they have already been living in their acquired gender. Currently, applicants for gender recognition certificates are required to have been living in their acquired gender for a minimum of two years. It is the Scottish Government’s opinion that that period should be reduced. Our initial proposal is for a three-month period, but that, too, will be fully consulted on.

The draft bill will propose that, after an application for gender recognition has been made and has been checked to ensure that the necessary information and statutory declaration have been provided, there will be a mandatory three-month reflection period before a gender recognition certificate can be granted. At the end of that period, the applicant will need to confirm that they still wish to proceed. Therefore, applicants will need to have lived in their acquired gender for at least six months before a gender recognition certificate can be granted. Making a false statutory declaration is, and will remain, a criminal offence, the potential punishment for which includes up to two years’ imprisonment.

Retaining the requirement for a statutory declaration, making it clear that a false declaration is a criminal offence and building in time for reflection will enshrine in law the seriousness of the process. No one should doubt that it is a significant undertaking, or that it will require the same level of commitment from the individual as the existing system does.*

From Shirley Anne Somerville speech

So a total of 6 months living in new gender, no psychiatric or report from gender specialist needed. I doubt if the penalties for false representation will ever be applied.

😅- relief

Thank FUCK!!!

I am filled with hope by the fact that 'no debate' is ended, and scrutiny, questions and impact assessments will be carried out.
I was impressed watching the forensic dissection of the subject by the committee considering the Census changes regarding trans and non binary identities in December when a few heads went above the parapet, and Susan Smith and Rosa Freedman gave evidence.
www.scottishparliament.tv/meeting/culture-tourism-europe-and-external-affairs-committee-december-6-2018

What really struck me in this committee was watching Vic Valentine and Tim Hopkins submissions wibbling and backtracking when forced to confront some reality based questions (Joan MacAlpine, Kenneth Gibson, Annabelle Ewing, Alexander Stewart, Stuart McMillan, Tavish Scott), instead of the usual fawning, most-oppressedest-evah, oh noes how can we validate your identity. They clearly had no practical substance to their arguments beyond 'we want this' and 'complicated word salad' but no real answers when their past words and in many cases erroneous statements were questioned, (including trying to sneak the Scottish Public Boards gender representation bills redefinition of the term woman as a precedent for self defined gender identity being used over sex)
Heres hoping lovely sunlight and rational argument will be enough to find a way of protecting the sex based rights of women and girls while providing support for those with trans identities. The discussions now are also coming onto a new background of public awareness, questions being asked about diagnosis, mermaids, safeguarding, NSPCC, Pride parade issues etc, Martinas documentary with the evidenced unfairness rather than a heartrending Butterflies drama, and the grassroots voices of Scottish women are now being heard.

Except they have not abandoned the plans at all. The proposals are still for self ID after living in chosen gender for 3 months, with a 3 month cooling off period. No reports from gender specialists needed.

It is self ID!

I know what you mean Gingerkitty, theyve not abandoned the plans yet but I still hope there is all to play for.

Will a bill with proposals of less gatekeeping get through an open debate, with all voices heard, on a background of increasing concerns about fasttracking transition and lack of mental health support?

Will the concept of gender identity/Yogakartha principles being best practice finally be fully examined?

or possibly there might be linked some legally enforcable definitions, boundaries and protections for women and girls?

or will the sheer nonsensical nature of 'living as a woman/man' finally get recognised as the tosh it is, and the gender recognition certificate have a different form or meaning from the current legal fiction and simply 'we recognise how you want to live your life and will protect and uphold that but your sex remains immutable and cannot change in legality or reality.

Didactylos yeh they were asked how you live as a particular sex. No real answer. How would 'Pippa' Bunce answer the question, um...not sure maybe non-binary. They wanted to remove the exclusion clause the TRAs keep hanging onto to get the reforms through. All apart for out of touch intersex obsessed Ross Greer sounded like they get it.

The biggest problem is that this is being shelved until after the election as they know they will lose more votes id they go ahead. My worry is, as a prior snp voter, that they will need green support after next election and will allow self id and loss of woman's rights. I no longer trust the snp to put what is right before being power hungry ☹️ however with people like Joan we have a chance to stop the rot or at least reduce the impact.

When asked directly they said they'd do their best to push this next phase of consultation (and the next version of the bill) through before the end of this parliament but also said something about that being a restrictively tight timescale. You got the impression they didn't honestly think it would be achievable.

As mentioned above I think it'll come down to bargaining chips after that for support of the Greens. It may be that other more pressing issues take precedence for them by that point but I'd be surprised if that's the case. They're heavy duty on this issue.

I think the key objectives have to be pushing for full and transparent consultation, for as long as this remains "on the shelf". The wording of the proposals, the type of consultation they'll do, ensuring they have women's groups giving evidence and on all supporting panels. Getting the definitions sorted out - making sure sex and gender aren't deliberately conflated (as they were before) and making sure there's a working definition of trans itself. Plenty work to do, it's far from over.

I doubt if the penalties for false representation will ever be applied.

How could they be? The declaration will be based on a feeling that they have when they make the declaration. There is no proof that they really have that feeling. If they subsequently are found to not be living in the way that might be expected for someone who has that feeling, they can still claim that they had the feeling at the time they made the declaration.

The government has to define what is meant by 'living as a man/woman' in order to see if the lifestyle of a person who claims to be living as the opposite sex conforms to those expectations.

It’s already being painted as a gross ‘betrayal’ of the transgender community by the likes of Mahiri Black (SNP) and Patrick Harvie (Greens) who seem to object to the equality impact assessments (outrageous?!) and just want to press ahead regardless.

What's the reasoning behind their objection to the equality impact assessments? Don't they understand that they're supposed to protect all protected groups?

Mhairi Black tweeted this. She doesn't seem to understand how these laws work.
twitter.com/MhairiBlack/status/1141795447578734592

Is this real?Does it mean we can challenge a male in womens spaces,and not get a call from police?