Can someone explain...

[Wizbetisanizbet]

Why this is transphobic? I believe that it was written by a transsexual person and seems quite sensible to me. The TRA's are kicking off on Twitter over it calling it Transphobic.

@LenizarLyublyu what are you on about?

Why are you uncomfortable with the change starts with you paragraph? Genuinely curious as it's respectfully suggesting an attitude change towards others. I see far too much bile and hate from people who think it's acceptable to demonise women for not being on board with the TWAW.

Of course, it's never right to blame victims. But I'm thinking of all the times I've joined a group - a new workplace, a band, a choir, a friendship group... you do it slowly and carefully and mindfully.

You sit back, you observe the dynamics, you try to 'fit in' in the best way you can.

What you don't do is stride in and make demands and shout down people who've been in that group for years.

I mean, you can do that, and I've certainly seen it happen, but those people aren't welcomed into the group particularly and are often disliked.

I do agree with the comments about behaving like the gender you're wanting to join because it appears to reinforce strict boundaries stereotypes. But I suspect that what they are getting at is "if you want to be accepted into the group of 'women', then behaving like and angry, violent man ain't the way to do it.

I can see why people are objecting but, tbh, I suspect those same people would object however it were phrased.

As the poster says stop looking for something that isn't there.

I am gender critical. I do not believe that trans women are female or women, because to be a woman means being an adult human female. I do not believe in gender identites. Don't get me wrong, I am not on "their side" or whatever. The poster still doesn't sit right with me, and you asked for opinions.

@Wizbetisanizbet - What does a woman look like, walk like talk like and act like? Quite apart from the whole trans issue those words make me feel very disturbed, just from the POV of a woman.

LenizarLyublyu what are you on about?

Which part don't you understand?

You contradict yourself

Where?

having it under the banner of "5 steps to eradicate transphobia" is hugely victim blaming

I read it as entirely tongue in cheek and aimed squarely at the militant TRAs who shout transphobia solely at women who understand biology, rather than at the people who genuinely are transphobic. Those TRAs are shouting loudest at present on Twitter and they are about as far from being victims as it’s possible to be.

Indeed, I would say they are a major cause of people objecting to self-ID and they certainly cause some women to be very wary of male transitioners. That isn’t transphobia by the way. It’s valid fear of angry male behaviour. So they are, in fact, a cause of what they designate transphobia, even though it isn’t.

But you are lumping all trans people into this same group. How do you think this poster comes across to a trans person who is not one of the "omg you have a period how tranphobic I am literally female", who is bullies and told they are disgusting for being trans?

I suspect the makers of the poster were quite clear in who they were aiming it at and I suspect that those transpeople who are not of the "OMG..." ill would know it's not aimed at them.

However...

That doesn't make it right. I think the poster is clearly aimed at a very specific demographic of trans person.

And the reality is probably that whilst people are fighting over 'transphobia', actual transphobia isn't getting the attention it deserves.

I read it as entirely tongue in cheek and aimed squarely at the militant TRAs who shout transphobia solely at women who understand biology, rather than at the people who genuinely are transphobic

That's exactly how I read it too.

If the poster was about how to win friends and influence people, it's close. (Still wouldn't want to dictate what to wear etc.)

BUT it's claiming that this is how you get rid of transphobia. And is totally isn't.

As a poster to TRA's to say "stop and listen", engage respectfully, don't bully, sure. (Minus what to wear)

So, is it a message to TRA to talk nicely or a message to stop transphobia?

Fair enough. I didn't see it as tongue in cheek.

I read it as victim blaming as well, I am afraid. It also hugely misses the point of gender critical arguments because it enforces gender stereotypes, rather than seeks to dismantle them.

Um, I don't like that. The aim seems to be persuasion. It wouldn't persuade me. Yes, the things it references are not transphobia, and sure, if a lot of TRAs stopped viewing simple disagreements as transphobia it would be better for everyone.

But you don't 'Stop Transphobia' by giving advice that doesn't address actual transphobia.

If the title was different, perhaps "How we can work together to stop transphobia" then maybe it might have landed. But as it is, it just reads as smug.

It's one thing to talk about some of those issues on FWR and other women's spaces. It's another thing to make a specific effort to reach out to trans people by being patronising and smug.

BUT it's claiming that this is how you get rid of transphobia. And is totally isn't

I think alot of it totally depends on how you interpret it all. Especially transphobia

No one is responsible for the actions of anyone else. And no one should be being actively nasty to anyone either.

Depends on what the poster really meant about being a victim.

If someone is yelled at or insulted because they are trans theh yes they are a victim obviously.. but luckily for them it would he classed as a hate crime and dealt with. Conveniently sex isnt a basis for a hate crime so people can tell fucking slag out the window at us as much as they like and get away with it.

Most the cases that have been discussed on line though or in the papers though well thats not people saying they were called a its claiming victim hood when sporting a full on beard and cock out in a womens group group change and being asked to leave. That's the kind of victimhood most often claimed so that's how I read it.

Most if us would of course feel that if someone was actively discriminated against and the victim.of an actual hate from.that ot was not their fault at all.

I read it as entirely tongue in cheek and aimed squarely at the militant TRAs who shout transphobia solely at women who understand biology, rather than at the people who genuinely are transphobic

If that was the intention then it’s misguided. The poster will be circulated on SM and possibly used by press (The Guardian specifically) as an example of victim blaming, TERF nastiness.

@Beingnicetomyself you tell me. A woman is an adult human female. We are not stereo types. But if I were to identify as the opposite sex then I would look at what I think men do, say and look like and act accordingly.

I don't know what it feels like to be a woman. I am one because I was born female and grew to adulthood. I have I have given birth, have periods, raging migraines and today hormonal anger issues all linked with my biology. At some point in the future I will go through menopause.
Somedays I might wear a dress and lipstick. Most of the time I'm in jeans and a t-shirt. I like a whole range of pursuits, I'm outspoken.

Is that womanly? Yes, for me it is. Others will be different. You can't slap woman in a box and shove a label on it. The thing we all have in common is that we were born female.

I also think people will find an issue where there is none.

Okay, my brief reflection on this - my discomfort comes from the fact that it starts from the premise that what women are doing is ‘hate’ - whereas women are not hating transgender people, they are expressing peacefully and demographically a range of concerns and a wish to protect sex based rights and indeed, also to protect children from lifelong medical intervention until such time as they are old enough to make informed decisions of their own. That is not hate.

Secondly, whilst characterising this position as ‘hate’, it then suggests that transwomen simply have to become more like women and not gather any attention and then there will be less resistance to the entry into women’s same sex spaces.

Then at the bottom, it says listen to us, we have been doing it for years.

Mixed in, there is an acknowledgment that transgender people will never be the opposite sex, but I do not recall (on phone) whether it also says hence, respect women’s rights to same sex space and to organise to protect these.

Sorry, not women in my first paragraph, gender critical women.

Also checked back the poster - there is no message about respecting women’s same sex spaces or right to discussion, it is all about be quieter and more polite and ask us for tips to pass in that way...

Wizbetisanizbet - do you acknowledge that transphobia (actual transphobia, not gender critical thought etc) exists?

And I agree that acting like a woman is different for every woman, which is what makes telling trans women to "act like women" utterly ridiculous.

NB I totally agree that trans women should be generally respectful, kind, polite etc just as everyone should, regardless of gender or sex.

I read it as entirely tongue in cheek and aimed squarely at the militant TRAs who shout transphobia solely at women who understand biology, rather than at the people who genuinely are transphobic

Also as a parody of appeals to female socialisation.

That said, this movement is not known for its appreciation of satire and is known for its twisting of meanings, so I expect it to go down like a sack of spuds.

Yeah, I dont think it really landed as parody or satire either. Maybe I'm just being a grumpy sod this morning, but it just read as too timid to be satire, and the messages are too mixed for it to be effective in other ways.

@Beingnicetomyself yes I do agree that actual transphobia exists. I do feel a zeitgeist will be reached and that genuine transphobia will be dismissed in the main because of a 'boy who cried wolf' situation.

We see it all the time.

The accusations that GC people face daily for our views, the police visits, court cases. It's reaching a nadir and when the backlash comes, it will be the ones who just wanted to a peaceful life who will suffer.

The oh so woke will find their next cause and will abandon trans people to float in the middle of the sea with no sail and no oars.
Meanwhile women's rights will be eroded and it will take us years to repair the damage.
I don't want that.

But I'm thinking of all the times I've joined a group - a new workplace, a band, a choir, a friendship group... you do it slowly and carefully and mindfully

You sit back, you observe the dynamics, you try to 'fit in' in the best way you can

What you don't do is stride in and make demands and shout down people who've been in that group for years

Blaire White said exactly all of this in one of her videos.